Question for those who build and sell engines

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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ClassicRob
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by ClassicRob »

This is EXACTLY why I won’t go in business for myself. There is no shortage of idiots who can’t be humble. I’m 40, raised by boomers and learned from that generation. I can’t even begin to tell you how I can’t hang out with anyone younger than me, much less anyone even my age most of the time. It’s like they forgot how to be decent. Family can be the worst too. Friends? Yeah, until they call you for favors and you refuse. I just refused to help a buddy work on his diesel for the third time. I told him to take it to a shop. He put a high pressure fuel pump on it and screwed up the timing on the pump after I told him to not buy a modded duramax that’s been deleted.

People just don’t seem to take any responsibility these days.
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by 1980RS »

In 1976 I sold a '66 Caprice with a 327 and a 4 spd. to a kid for several hundred bucks. A day later his dad called me and said the engine was making a knocking noise and since I was the one who put that engine in the car should pay for the repair. I told his dad to be a good guy here I would not pay for parts but would be willing to put an engine in for free for whatever he brings me and he agreed. I did learn that the kid did not know how to drive a stick car and drove this home in 1st gear (boom), so they brought over another 327 from a junk yard and I put it in. The new engine started right up but when I revved it the sucker popped out the carb (flat cam) and his dad was livid. It was my fault and they took me to court, I stated my case to the judge and he also asked my me why I put the new engine in for free, I told the judge it was the right thing to do. After the kid and his dad has their say the judge came back and told them that because I did the 2nd engine for free and the bill of sale said AS-IS it was on him and they would have to foot any other bills.

I had one other time in court with a performance head builder who said I would have killer heads when he got done. They sure were killer alright the numbers were great and made killer power if you could keep them from leaking as he hit water in several areas. I sued him and won but he would not pay up. I put a judgement against his property and 10 years later when he moved I got a check in the mail for $1500 bucks.
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by ProPower engines »

PackardV8 wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:37 pm
novafornow wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 3:29 pm I have done the part time at home stuff for years. Been fairly lucky I guess. Only remember one problem. Guy overheated and cooked a new engine. Water pump or radiator problem, can't remember. I took it back in, disassembled, paid for needed machine work, and handed him back everything in a box. Told him that he could have whoever he wanted do the job, but i would not. It was worth the expense to me to save my reputation.
That's why most rebuilders install heat tabs. At one time, my machinist had long block customers sign that any warranty claims had to be accompanied by receipts for a new water pump, oil cooler and radiator, dated prior to picking up the engine.
I do the same thing. I go further to state the install must be done by a certified red seal tech that has 5 or more years in trade and that any parts like water pump etc. must have dated invoiced prior to the shops release.
All oil changes must be done by a licenced and insured shop by qualified personnel which translates to no user/owner servicing of engine.
All shops give a dated work order with mileage shown on the invoice.

the other option is if you do 5 or more engines a year look into liability insurance. Yes it has a small deductible but 1 bad engine job through the courts can kill a guys future cause the courts almost always side with the customer.
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BCjohnny
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by BCjohnny »

First thing is you need is insurance …… no ifs not buts


The second, if you offer a more ‘personal’ service, is the ability to judge your customer, and you’ve either got this or you haven’t ….. regardless develop the ability to walk away from anything that doesn’t smell right ....... this is the hardest thing, especially when starting over, but is your first line of defense


If you’re building ‘stock’ or bulk engines put heat tabs on everything and make it a condition of warranty that professional install, including replacement of all associated parts & ongoing servicing (intervals etc etc) are mandatory and should a warranty claim arise all printed receipts proving such will need to be provided in advance of consideration

If you’ve any doubts as to warranty conditions, go online and read those of a few of the major rebuilders for ideas ……. they’ve already done the leg work and paid the lawyers ….. and adjust to suit your business if needed


If you’re doing non-stock or competition work you have less liability but regardless get the customer to put in writing their requirements and expectations, and do the same about your reservations and concerns, if any …… always create a paper trail on all but the more minor of jobs, in this day and age that's usually email


Even if you consider there’s no warranty should a claim arise, always try to be reasonable with the customer …… don’t adopt a ‘talk to the hand’ approach …… and even be prepared to consider or share some ‘no prejudice, gesture of goodwill’ repair work to take the heat out of the situation, where practical

This will always bear in your favour should things get litigious


If you have to put your best suit on for a day out, don’t go in all guns blazing, often the more reasonable appearing person there, not necessarily the most righteous, will get the better hearing

And consider back up if you are right ..... you shouldn't be there if there's any doubt ..... professional witnesses costs are usually met by the plaintiff if unsuccessful, and make this clear prior to them threatening action

If you really want to ramp up pressure, 'indicate' you'll probably be taking a brief, with all the associated costs should they lose


Finally if you’re properly in business you need big shoulders to deal with the inevitable nonsense, and don’t be personal, or take anything personally, when it arises, as it will

And you will always end up doing remedial work that’s not your fault, so build it into your pricing or get the insurance to deal with the one’s you won’t swallow


There’s always a lot more, but that’s the bones of it, and as usual JMO
bob460
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by bob460 »

What about when the builder screws over the customer (happens all to often) and your 10,000 miles away.......... ask me how i know....lol

Or when a builder take's 7 1/2 years to build an engine WTF!!!

It's S**T on either side your on.
Bill Chase
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by Bill Chase »

Even if you go to court you lose. Time away from the shop, lawyers, are expensive. The best way to avoid it I would think is a healthy, lengthy, comprehensive disclaimer. Make the customer read it, and put a spot for them to initial it at the end of every paragraph. Driving home the point that you will not be held liable. As redundant and over the top as it may seem plaster the paperwork with it, no warranty, once it leaves the shop it is not your problem, no warranty. So much so that a first year law student could get a dismissal within minutes in a small claims court. And if they still drag you into court.. file a counter suite, file a small claims case for your loss of income for being in court. Make it expensive for the "idiot" after all they will do it to you.
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by MotionMachine »

Like everyone else, I've seen so much stupid crap done by idiots, also known as the general public. I got lucky on a lot of it and found the issues, no payout. I got so lucky on the last failure to find the obvious rookie mistake, one that would have cost me thousands. I decided then and there, on that Sunday morning when I dragged my ass into the shop to begin tearing the motor apart, that it was my last assembly job. Best decision ever, I highly recommend it. Instead, invest in more and better equipment, you'll be busier with less headache.
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by BCjohnny »

bob460

Exactly ...... not all customers are 'idiots' and not all 'engine builders' are blameless


I've never had to defend my position in court ...... although I've appeared as an 'expert' witness ...... and it's not exactly unknown for me to say a flat no to the occasional 'complaint'

But compromise is usually the best use of time and peace of mind
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by hoodeng »

As quoted before ' make a paper trail' This also applies to parts suppliers. How many times have we had to deal with wrong parts, incorrect quantities, miss packaging, manifest not matching box fill, manifest pricing not matching quotes etc etc.

There is a habit with some account handlers to start a new email with each reply to a purchase/shipment query, the trail gets split up.
What i do is copy and paste all correspondence into one email and send my reply on top of that so all is there to see. If resolution gets prickly, the sales persons supervisor gets to see it all in a nutshell, If he sees a problem with my order on my behalf he can detail it to me in his reply, if he sees remiss on his employees part he can rectify and forward me his resolution, it is now out of the hands of the sales rep.

Over the years i have asked distributor supervisors to change my account handler [very rare occurrence] these guys seem to be set in concrete, but if you tell the supervisor that your purchase preference for their company could change if you remain stuck with that sales rep some action usually ensues.

Cheers.
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by Walter R. Malik »

Lizardracing wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 11:03 am My engine guy has a statement that he will do HIS way or not at all. Your choice....His stuff doesn't blow up.
Yes, Yes, Yes ... I learned this the hard way.

Some people will call you all kinds of names to everyone who will listen when you tell them you won't do their work.
If those names are true, then why did you want to bring your work here in the first place...? Then, they are quiet.
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ProPower engines
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by ProPower engines »

You can have NO WARRANTY all through the work order and that still does not prevent you from ending up in court.

I had an experienced marine shop contract me to do a small repair on a ford 351 W which used the Gt-40 heads from factory.
Now they use a different valve size then the regular 351 W and during the valve job I noticed the intake valves were cupped which is caused by too much chamber heat as we all have seen when they get too hot and pull into the head.
This is caused by the electronic operating system malfunctioning causing lean and or too much ign. timing.
Common issue with older boats and I advised my customer to inform his customer he needed to change his engine module so it does not happen again. Seemed straight forward at the time.
So my guys writes on the WO needs to replace ign. module current module is defective.\An old OMC cobra installation.

Now the owner gets it re-flashed and now believes its fine although they tell you there is no way to know if it is working correctly till its run again.

Now it gets run and in 10 hrs of running it happens again and the same repair is done and the owner is again told to get it fixed so he re flashes the module and this time it was 20 hours till round three comes.

Now his insurance has paid out on the 1st and 2nd repairs but now wants to look at why the 3rd happened.
The investigation took a year to get to court and then 4 years later it settled.
point is my insurance covered the lawyer's costs to get the issue settled.

This was a cross border deal as well making it real complicated but the legal costs would be astronomical as the boat owner was suing for $ 25,000 the cost to re-power his boat because of the issues he had from disbelieve of the need to replace his defective module which was about $2500 at the time and the cost of the 3rd repair the insurance would not cover another $2500.

Now my $500 deductible seems like money well spent as regardless you have to prove your case and that costs money even when in the right.
But the judge was siding with the boat owner in so much to say that he does not have to understand why it did not reflash just that he tried. And his insurance company was then on the hook to deal with it.


We all still have some out of pocket costs when the shit hits the fan at times to keep guys happy and save the court time and as mentioned its easier to work through it in a happy way for both parties then just tell the guy to pound sand right from the start.
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by hoodeng »

PPE you have the classic three warning bells right there.

Fist warning bell, bad job, bad judgement, bad management,remiss, bad luck.
Second warning bell, tread carefully the warning is now loud and clear, check everything associated and peripheral with the failure.
Third warning bell, stop the job, there is something fundamentally wrong.

In your case PPE how can they sheet home blame to you?, heads pretty much only go together one way, and you have a lot of product out there so you have a good track record, to repeat a failure three times beggars belief on the part of the installer in commissioning the job.
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by ProPower engines »

I put it in writing they needed to change the module or no warranty expressed or implied on the work

I looked at that was well and the installer did his work correctly.
The boat owner was not completely honest about the deal either. Had another guy that flashed the module telling them they did not need anything.
Same old deal blame and name everyone involved and hope they would get their own way.

It did not work out for them in the end the lawyers sorted out who caused what and found there was something else being done at the same time by the owner in an a temp to hide something. He played with the ignition timing and had way too much advance set. The shop cleverly marked the engine to tell if it was moved from the OE setting spot and verified by me as well. because after a short time it was hard to start cold so the timing went ahead.
It got complicated fast for them after that but my deductible was a lot less then hiring a lawyer so insurance can save your ass is the moral of this story.
Don't do work for the public without liability insurance...................
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by BCjohnny »

Unfortunately in this type of business it’s generally in the nature of trade to try to help people, aside of any financial consideration ….. so a lot of owners become sitting ducks

With that kind of mindset we’ve all taken on jobs knowing it just might be another ‘boomerang’, despite the impending sense of doom …… much like in a film when someone activates the self destruct button on one of those colossal interplanetary spaceships and everyone’s trying to get off before it lights up the neighbourhood …… cue strobe lights and Waah ... Waah … Waah

After all, no good deed ever goes unpunished

But even standing firm isn’t always enough of a deterrent, I once had a guy threaten to sue me because I wouldn’t do his work …… the twisted logic being that as I could do it I should do it, it was some kind of inherent obligation …… you simply couldn’t make this stuff up

If you’re a major or remote business you don’t have the luxury to sniff out the customer, so if it’s not built into the price and quantity of scale it should be, but for the most of the rest of us it’s at least an option

So depending on your business, actually life, model, not throwing boomerangs becomes increasingly important …… not so easy when starting out with the financial pressure it often brings

You won't swerve them all, but if you take work on driven solely by the filthy lucre, knowing that your sixth sense is otherwise off the radar, well …..
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Re: Question for those who build and sell engines

Post by dannobee »

ProPower engines wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 2:50 am I put it in writing they needed to change the module or no warranty expressed or implied on the work

I looked at that was well and the installer did his work correctly.
The boat owner was not completely honest about the deal either. Had another guy that flashed the module telling them they did not need anything.
Same old deal blame and name everyone involved and hope they would get their own way.

It did not work out for them in the end the lawyers sorted out who caused what and found there was something else being done at the same time by the owner in an a temp to hide something. He played with the ignition timing and had way too much advance set. The shop cleverly marked the engine to tell if it was moved from the OE setting spot and verified by me as well. because after a short time it was hard to start cold so the timing went ahead.
It got complicated fast for them after that but my deductible was a lot less then hiring a lawyer so insurance can save your ass is the moral of this story.
Don't do work for the public without liability insurance...................
Not to pick nits, but on the work order you should have written something like, "Suspect valve failure was caused by engine management system. Further diagnosis will be needed by engine installer so that problem does not reoccur." And have the owner sign or initial it. Don't say that they need to replace a certain part because that might not be the whole picture.
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