Indy car engine difference…

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Jim2527
New Member
New Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:03 pm
Location:

Indy car engine difference…

Post by Jim2527 »

Current engines.

Chevy is a collaboration with Ilmor
Honda say ‘built’ by HPD in California

Are these the same engines but rebadged? Are there any common parts like blocks, heads etc and then each manufacturer builds/assembles tunes?

I tried googling for pics to compare things like valve cover bolt patterns but didn’t have much luck.
User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 10709
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by CamKing »

Completely different engines.
The engines are homologated, and every part must be approved by IndyCar.
IndyCar controls the HP output, to keep the engines even.
No team can work on their engines.
Engines are sealed.
After an engine is approved the manufacturer can not make any component changes, without proving the change doesn't produce a power advantage.

In short, they're glorified dyno mules.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
Walter R. Malik
Guru
Guru
Posts: 6355
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 am
Location: Roseville, Michigan (just north of Detroit)
Contact:

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by Walter R. Malik »

CamKing wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:50 pm Completely different engines.
The engines are homologated, and every part must be approved by IndyCar.
IndyCar controls the HP output, to keep the engines even.
No team can work on their engines.
Engines are sealed.
After an engine is approved the manufacturer can not make any component changes, without proving the change doesn't produce a power advantage.

In short, they're glorified dyno mules.
Glorified "crate" engines ... that is one of the reasons that "Indy Car" is not a total competition anymore.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Chris_Hamilton
Pro
Pro
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 11:50 pm
Location:

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by Chris_Hamilton »

Identical engines aside the semi enclosed cockpit and mini fenders on the rear wheels really kill it for me. I miss the old days as a little kid watching it on tape delay. I loved how those cars in the later 70's looked. All the cars were different as well.

Compare this to today.

Image
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
High quality metal, body and paint work
http://www.spiuserforum.com/index.php?t ... inia.9030/
User avatar
frnkeore
Expert
Expert
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by frnkeore »

It is very sad, what happened to Indy Car!

I've watched it since the late '50's. My dad worked for the company that owned the Novi, Indy car (Meyer and Welch. The Meyer, Louis Meyer, 3 time Indy winner).

You can blame Tony George, for what has happened to it!!! Had CART kept control, it could today, have rivaled F1.

I call them a 900 HP, Formula Ford car. But, it's even worse because there is only 2 engines and one chassis.
User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 10709
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by CamKing »

frnkeore wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:46 am You can blame Tony George, for what has happened to it!!! Had CART kept control, it could today, have rivaled F1.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Tony George tried to save IndyCar, but was too late.
CART was killing IndyCar. They were headed right down the path, to what we have now.
CART gave us the "Sealed" lease only engines. Cart made IndyCar a playground for any spoiled rich kid, that could afford to buy a ride.
The established team owners in CART made the rules, and the rules were made to benefit those owners.
Do you think Penske, as a part owner of Ilmor, was going to vote for rules that open up engine development ?
By 1990, CART was moving away from Ovals, and was looking at making Indy, just another race on the schedule, and not the cornerstone of the series. Their focus was on road racing, and wanting to be F1 "Light".

My customers are race engine builders, from every form of racing, and by the 90's they saw no connection to what they were doing, and CART.
When Tony George started the IRL, that all changed. People that worked in the racing industry, or just followed grass roots racing in the US, were talking about Indy car racing again. Circle Track fans could once again go to the Indiana Fair Grounds in May, for the Hulman 100, and watch some of the same drivers that would be running in the Indy 500.
Unfortunately, Tony George was too late, starting the IRL, and the pipeline from short track racing to NASCAR was well established, and a much easier/lucrative path.

BTW, I knew Louis Meyer, his son Sonny Meyer(Vince Granatelli Racing) was one of my customers, and so was Sonny's son, Butch Meyer(Menards Racing).
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
User avatar
frnkeore
Expert
Expert
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by frnkeore »

CamKing wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:28 am
frnkeore wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:46 am You can blame Tony George, for what has happened to it!!! Had CART kept control, it could today, have rivaled F1.
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Tony George tried to save IndyCar, but was too late.

With all do respect, Mike, your very wrong.
First TG is a egotistical, self centered, power hungry, Ahole, simple as that!


CART was killing IndyCar. They were headed right down the path, to what we have now.
CART gave us the "Sealed" lease only engines. Cart made IndyCar a playground for any spoiled rich kid, that could afford to buy a ride.
The established team owners in CART made the rules, and the rules were made to benefit those owners.
Do you think Penske, as a part owner of Ilmor, was going to vote for rules that open up engine development ?
By 1990, CART was moving away from Ovals, and was looking at making Indy, just another race on the schedule, and not the cornerstone of the series. Their focus was on road racing, and wanting to be F1 "Light".

Cart didn't limit engines or chassis, they just had to comply with the Formula of the rules. There were many chassis and engines competed, under CART. Remember the Buick? The engine and chassis that was dominate was the one that won and sold best, the next year. CART became world wide, with races in the US, Canada, Mexico, Germany, Japan, Australia and Brazil. Does that sound like a failing organization?

And please explain what is wrong with road racing.

Also, the Indy 500 was NEVER what Champ cars was about. It was never set up to run Champ Cars. It was just one race in the series of Champ Cars. It was the premier race and awarded double points and a lot of $ but it was never intended to be the only race that mattered. It was and is about the championship driver. You were NEVER able to win the championship, by winning Indy. Some drivers don't like to turn both directions but, some do, such as Gurney. Gurney did more for for Indy Car than TG, ever did!


My customers are race engine builders, from every form of racing, and by the 90's they saw no connection to what they were doing, and CART.
When Tony George started the IRL, that all changed. People that worked in the racing industry, or just followed grass roots racing in the US, were talking about Indy car racing again. Circle Track fans could once again go to the Indiana Fair Grounds in May, for the Hulman 100, and watch some of the same drivers that would be running in the Indy 500.
Unfortunately, Tony George was too late, starting the IRL, and the pipeline from short track racing to NASCAR was well established, and a much easier/lucrative path.

WOW, the above, is all news to me! TG tried and did break the back of CART, ONLY because the team sponsors wanted their cars in the Indy 500 race, no other reason! He made it impossible for CART cars, to make, even the top 25.
Because of TG, Indy cars lost their #1 position in racing, to NASCAR and have NEVER recovered! During CART and before, there were at least 40 cars trying to get in the race. Many year they had trouble getting 33 to qualify. This year only 35


BTW, I knew Louis Meyer, his son Sonny Meyer(Vince Granatelli Racing) was one of my customers, and so was Sonny's son, Butch Meyer(Menards Racing).
CastIron
New Member
New Member
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:24 am
Location:

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by CastIron »

The Buick's didn't race under CART rules. They ran under USAC rules as USAC sanctioned the 500.

Same reason the pushrod Mercedes was a 500 only engine.

I've never followed Indycars much and even I know that.
Truckedup
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:41 pm
Location: Finger Lakes

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by Truckedup »

This a racing car, driver inches from the tires, you could see the driver sawing away on the steering wheel.....And speeds not so high so you can see the action...Progress is not always better

Image
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
Adger Smith
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2211
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:35 pm
Location: Texarkana, Ar-Tx

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by Adger Smith »

Is it my imagination or have they reduced the width of the Indy Car tires from years past?
This was the first year I watched Indy in a long long time.
Adger Smith
Adger Smith Performance Engines
903 794 7223 shop
903 824 4924 cell
adgersperf@aol.com e-mail
Jim2527
New Member
New Member
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 4:03 pm
Location:

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by Jim2527 »

https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/c ... cing-tire/

That article doesn’t list changes year to year... current rears are 415’s or 16”
englertracing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1547
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:55 am
Location:

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by englertracing »

Truckedup wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:00 am This a racing car, driver inches from the tires, you could see the driver sawing away on the steering wheel.....And speeds not so high so you can see the action...Progress is not always better

Image
Those turned into sprint cars....
:)
User avatar
frnkeore
Expert
Expert
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by frnkeore »

First, Buick's were allow in CART but, didn't get the boost advantage.

So, the last year that CART ran in the Indy 500, before it changed to IRL, was 1995. Pole speed 231.6 mph

There were 3 chassis, Lola, Penski (didn't make the grid) and Reynard and there were 5 engines, Ford, Mercedes, Menard/Buick, Honda and a one of, push rod engine, called a Greenfield, not based on any production engine. 49 cars entered, 9 cars tried to Bump.

1996 was a transition year, using CART cars.

1997 was TG's rules year and only 30 cars actually started the race. Pole speed dropped 13+ mph.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 10709
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by CamKing »

frnkeore wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:30 pm
Cart didn't limit engines or chassis, they just had to comply with the Formula of the rules. There were many chassis and engines competed, under CART. Remember the Buick?


Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.
The Buick Was a 2-Valve, pushrod, stock block engine, that required increased boost to run with the lighter purpose built, 4-valve, duel overhead cam engines.
USAC allowed the increased boost. CART did not, because the CART team owners on the board, didn't run Buicks.
Around 1990, CART owners allowed the engine builders, to stop selling engines, and only lease them to the teams, so no teams could work on their own engines. Before that, the engines had to be made available to buy. When Sonny Meyer worked for Vince Granatelli Racing, they built their Cosworths in-house, and we made the cams for them. In 1987 they won Phoenix, and had a 1 lap lead at Indy, but lost it in the pits, with a damaged clutch. Sonny Meyer went to work for the IRL, a few years after it started.

To say " the Indy 500 was NEVER what Champ cars was about" is beyond laughable.
CART trademarked the name "IndyCar", and went to court to protect it. The CART owners resented the fact, that the one race they didn't control(Indy was a USAC race), was the cornerstone of their identity, and the one reason most of their sponsors were giving them money. For many teams, almost have their budget was spent on racing at a race, run by USAC. A race that non-CART teams could compete against them. A race with different rules, then all the other races. A race, that took up a whole month of their schedule.
The CART team owners did not like their series being identified by a race, they didn't control. They were pushing to make Indy a 1 week race, like all others, and make it the same points as all others. USAC had control of the 500, but CART had control of most of the teams. TG started the IRL as a circle track only series to run a few races a year, that didn't compete with CART's schedule. The idea was to give more value to non-CART teams that want to run Indy, so if CART decided to strong-arm Indy into becoming a 1 week event by threatening to boycott if they didn't, there would be enough non-CART teams to put on the 500 without CART.

CART decided it was in their best interest, to try and destroy the IRL, before it got started.
As soon as the IRL released their 3 race schedule for the first year, CART made changes to their established schedule, so it would conflict with the IRL's first two races at WDW, and Phoenix. This was to keep CART teams from running those IRL races.
The IRL fired back, by locking in 25 of the 33 starting spots at Indy to IRL teams.
CART fired back, by announcing the "Cars and Stars of Indy" would be racing in Michigan on Memorial day weekend.
Both sides decided the "scorched earth" policy was the way they wanted to go, and war was on.

The IRL found out, the Indy 500 isn't enough to to make a series a hit.
CART found out, their series was a hell of a lot less valuable to sponsors, without the Indy 500.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
User avatar
frnkeore
Expert
Expert
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Indy car engine difference…

Post by frnkeore »

Again, you have no idea what you're talking about.
The Buick Was a 2-Valve, pushrod, stock block engine, that required increased boost to run with the lighter purpose built, 4-valve, duel overhead cam engines.
USAC allowed the increased boost. CART did not, because the CART team owners on the board, didn't run Buicks.
I know quite well what the Buick engine was and it was allowed in CART, at the same boost level as all engines. It already had a almost 25% displacement advantage over 4v engines. Not to mention, that it would have won just as many races N/A as it would have with double the boost the boost it had in any form.

I do appreciate John Menard's dedication, in his efforts.
To say " the Indy 500 was NEVER what Champ cars was about" is beyond laughable.
You statement, itself, is laughable. Both USAC, IRL, Indy Car & CART are DRIVERS CHAMPIONSHIPS! Not race track championships, not engine championships, and not chassis championships.

IMS has one oval race a year, for these open wheel cars. I liked it when they added the infield road course and also, cutting it to 2 weeks and adding the road race. Using the whole month for one race wasn't good for any one but IMS.

Also, from 1911 to now, the Indy 500 (First called "International 500-Mile Sweepstakes Race") was part of a series. First AAA, then USAC, in '56, then CART, IRL and now Indy Car. You get money, your name on the Borg Warner Trophy and many more benefits, BUT, you don't get the championship.

CART came about because USAC had no interest in helping teams, nor did they actually know what teams needed. Teams make up the racing, to ignore them doesn't help anyone.

I'm not a disinterested party in Formula or Indy Car racing. To throw names around like is being done, I raced at OMS Road course, I started racing SCCA in '73, with Danny Ongias, in our first drivers schools (he ran F5000, I ran in the same races, in F/A), talked to him at every race and his mechanic, Carol Smith, in SoCal, while he was qualifying for his pro license, Dennis Firestone was one of my SCCA instructors, Pete Halsmer was a friend a and fellow, F/A competitor. And many more, behind the scenes formula car people, that went on to indy cars.
make it the same points as all others.
How do you justify giving more points to one 500 mi race, than any other? Was it any easier to run the other races in the "Triple Crown"? I would say harder, because you had less prep time.
The IRL found out, the Indy 500 isn't enough to to make a series a hit.
CART found out, their series was a hell of a lot less valuable to sponsors, without the Indy 500.
I agree with your above statement. The tragedy is what TG did and Champ Car racing will, probably never recover from a one thriving #1 auto racing sport. As I said, it could, today rival F1.

Now,with F1 owned by US investors, we will end up, with at least three (maybe 4), F1 races, in the future, with many more engines and chassis. F1 started with the same type of ground level engineering as the 80's and earlier champ cars but, the world wide exposure, accelerated their development. That said, I don't like their hybrid engines but, I'm diffidently old school.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Post Reply