Break in oil magic

[JCR]

A few of the smaller companies don't have the facilities to blend their own oils. Redline is made by ConocoPhillips.

This is incorrect. Redline is still blended in their original facility in Benicia, California. Their chief chemist and VP is formerly from Lubrizol. The polyol esters they use are from Hatco.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenan ... 00827790=1

[cjperformance]

Speaking of race oils I’ve kind of always been puzzled about what type oil I should use in let’s say a 500 hp 1/4 mile dragrace car that runs in say the low 10’s for only about 4 are 5 passes per day.I would think an engine like this that barely gets up to a oil temperature of 150 degrees would be able to survive on a other than dedicated race only oil over a engine that runs for 20 plus laps were oil temperature can get up to over 240 are more.So would my thinking be wrong?????

At 150°F, the oil is a good bit more viscous than at typical operating temp of 212°F. A 20 grade at 150°F is about the same viscosity as a 50 grade at 212°F.

For a mild 500 HP NA drag race only engine, you can usually go away lower oil grade than you would imagine. My Camaro, for example, given the clearances would need a 5w-30 or 10w-30 on the street. Since it's dragstrip only, it uses a 0w-12 with a load of friction modifiers.

A lot of people want to dump in something like a 20w-50, which has the viscosity of maple syrup at <150°F, in a drag only car thinking they are protecting it better. It's not though. It just stresses the pump and robs power. On a 500 HP small block, that could be up to 20 HP just thrown away to hydrodynamic (oil) friction and pumping losses.

Racing oils are more than just that though. They tend to contain more corrosion inhibitors and metal deactivators to keep down rust during storage since race cars can tend to sit for weeks at a time between races. They also tend to have better base oils that's less volatile (oil evaporation/consumption) and more shear stable so you don't have to worry about the viscosity dropping with each pass beating on it. Some racing oils are specific to certain engines like the non-detergent straight grade oils made by High Performance Lubricants for boosted methanol engines.

Interesting re the hp from 20w50, years ago when Redline were trying to get a hold in the Australian market we were running a low 10second big block ford. We actually ran , wait for the screams, Penrite Hpr50 oil(30w70). The redline rep at AIR told us how much more hp their 5w30 would make in our engine and that at cold engine oil temps we were throwing et away. The rep gave us the 5w30 redline and we changed to the 5/30 for a few meetings, this was a consistent car, only ran to 6200 on the shift, the 5w30 made no concievable difference at all. We didnt hear from that rep again.

[RDY4WAR]

Speaking of race oils I’ve kind of always been puzzled about what type oil I should use in let’s say a 500 hp 1/4 mile dragrace car that runs in say the low 10’s for only about 4 are 5 passes per day.I would think an engine like this that barely gets up to a oil temperature of 150 degrees would be able to survive on a other than dedicated race only oil over a engine that runs for 20 plus laps were oil temperature can get up to over 240 are more.So would my thinking be wrong?????

At 150°F, the oil is a good bit more viscous than at typical operating temp of 212°F. A 20 grade at 150°F is about the same viscosity as a 50 grade at 212°F.

For a mild 500 HP NA drag race only engine, you can usually go away lower oil grade than you would imagine. My Camaro, for example, given the clearances would need a 5w-30 or 10w-30 on the street. Since it's dragstrip only, it uses a 0w-12 with a load of friction modifiers.

A lot of people want to dump in something like a 20w-50, which has the viscosity of maple syrup at <150°F, in a drag only car thinking they are protecting it better. It's not though. It just stresses the pump and robs power. On a 500 HP small block, that could be up to 20 HP just thrown away to hydrodynamic (oil) friction and pumping losses.

Racing oils are more than just that though. They tend to contain more corrosion inhibitors and metal deactivators to keep down rust during storage since race cars can tend to sit for weeks at a time between races. They also tend to have better base oils that's less volatile (oil evaporation/consumption) and more shear stable so you don't have to worry about the viscosity dropping with each pass beating on it. Some racing oils are specific to certain engines like the non-detergent straight grade oils made by High Performance Lubricants for boosted methanol engines.

Interesting re the hp from 20w50, years ago when Redline were trying to get a hold in the Australian market we were running a low 10second big block ford. We actually ran , wait for the screams, Penrite Hpr50 oil(30w70). The redline rep at AIR told us how much more hp their 5w30 would make in our engine and that at cold engine oil temps we were throwing et away. The rep gave us the 5w30 redline and we changed to the 5/30 for a few meetings, this was a consistent car, only ran to 6200 on the shift, the 5w30 made no concievable difference at all. We didnt hear from that rep again.

Not sure why that was the case there, but I've seen it several times where the lighter oil picked up ET. On the dyno, it's common to see ~1% power loss per oil grade over the ideal viscosity for the clearances, load, and operating temp. It could be that the relatively low rpm wasn't creating a lot of added friction to begin with.

The only thing that needs a 70 grade is Top Fuel. A 30 grade is on the heavy side for me.

[RDY4WAR]

A few of the smaller companies don't have the facilities to blend their own oils. Redline is made by ConocoPhillips.

This is incorrect. Redline is still blended in their original facility in Benicia, California. Their chief chemist and VP is formerly from Lubrizol. The polyol esters they use are from Hatco.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenan ... 00827790=1

That's good to see. I hadn't really kept up with them in a while.

[cjperformance]

At 150°F, the oil is a good bit more viscous than at typical operating temp of 212°F. A 20 grade at 150°F is about the same viscosity as a 50 grade at 212°F.

For a mild 500 HP NA drag race only engine, you can usually go away lower oil grade than you would imagine. My Camaro, for example, given the clearances would need a 5w-30 or 10w-30 on the street. Since it's dragstrip only, it uses a 0w-12 with a load of friction modifiers.

A lot of people want to dump in something like a 20w-50, which has the viscosity of maple syrup at <150°F, in a drag only car thinking they are protecting it better. It's not though. It just stresses the pump and robs power. On a 500 HP small block, that could be up to 20 HP just thrown away to hydrodynamic (oil) friction and pumping losses.

Racing oils are more than just that though. They tend to contain more corrosion inhibitors and metal deactivators to keep down rust during storage since race cars can tend to sit for weeks at a time between races. They also tend to have better base oils that's less volatile (oil evaporation/consumption) and more shear stable so you don't have to worry about the viscosity dropping with each pass beating on it. Some racing oils are specific to certain engines like the non-detergent straight grade oils made by High Performance Lubricants for boosted methanol engines.

Interesting re the hp from 20w50, years ago when Redline were trying to get a hold in the Australian market we were running a low 10second big block ford. We actually ran , wait for the screams, Penrite Hpr50 oil(30w70). The redline rep at AIR told us how much more hp their 5w30 would make in our engine and that at cold engine oil temps we were throwing et away. The rep gave us the 5w30 redline and we changed to the 5/30 for a few meetings, this was a consistent car, only ran to 6200 on the shift, the 5w30 made no concievable difference at all. We didnt hear from that rep again.

Not sure why that was the case there, but I've seen it several times where the lighter oil picked up ET. On the dyno, it's common to see ~1% power loss per oil grade over the ideal viscosity for the clearances, load, and operating temp. It could be that the relatively low rpm wasn't creating a lot of added friction to begin with.

The only thing that needs a 70 grade is Top Fuel. A 30 grade is on the heavy side for me.

Yes 70 grade is heavy! In reality we saw nothing 'bad' out of using it but agreed its not a requirement at that level!
We use Vr1 10w40 now(have tried a bunch over time) with our oil temp and clearances it works well and running farily hefty solid roller all the higher load areas look like new with it.

[1972ho]

I use to run Mobile 1 20w50 in a 500 hp dry sump engine but my et and mph wouldn’t pick up until I made at least 2 passes and the oil and water heated up.If I remember correctly it would pick up 2 tenths on the 3rd pass and couple of mph.But I quit running it and went 10w30 and after 1 pass the oil would be up to temperature and it would only gain about .010.

[cjperformance]

I use to run Mobile 1 20w50 in a 500 hp dry sump engine but my et and mph wouldn’t pick up until I made at least 2 passes and the oil and water heated up.If I remember correctly it would pick up 2 tenths on the 3rd pass and couple of mph.But I quit running it and went 10w30 and after 1 pass the oil would be up to temperature and it would only gain about .010.

2 tenths! What ambient temp and/or what was the oil temp at the start if the 1st run and what oil temp after 3 or 4 runs?

[Geoff2]

And, CJ, it not as if Redline is cheap here [ Australia ]........

[naukkis79]

Not sure why that was the case there, but I've seen it several times where the lighter oil picked up ET. On the dyno, it's common to see ~1% power loss per oil grade over the ideal viscosity for the clearances, load, and operating temp. It could be that the relatively low rpm wasn't creating a lot of ad

What happens with way too thick oil is that bearings oil flow is limited. With limited oil flow bearing temperature rises and actual oil viscosity especially in con rod bearings is very thin. It's actually very easy to burn con rod bearings with too thick oil and high rpm.

And if 5w-30 is also too thick oil for operation - oil pressure is limited with oil pump overpressure relief from low rpm there will be no difference in engine power output.

[cjperformance]

And, CJ, it not as if Redline is cheap here [ Australia ]........

Absolutely, they know how to charge!!

[cjperformance]

Not sure why that was the case there, but I've seen it several times where the lighter oil picked up ET. On the dyno, it's common to see ~1% power loss per oil grade over the ideal viscosity for the clearances, load, and operating temp. It could be that the relatively low rpm wasn't creating a lot of ad

What happens with way too thick oil is that bearings oil flow is limited. With limited oil flow bearing temperature rises and actual oil viscosity especially in con rod bearings is very thin. It's actually very easy to burn con rod bearings with too thick oil and high rpm.

And if 5w-30 is also too thick oil for operation - oil pressure is limited with oil pump overpressure relief from low rpm there will be no difference in engine power output.

The clearances need to be very tight or the rpm has to be very high for that to happen in reality. Rod bearings dont routinely burn up due to oil viscosity.
I hear what you are saying about being on the relief valve and then power not being affected but that is only one aspect of the thicker or thinner oil. The thinner oil would/should still theoretically have less drag at the bearing and if the thick oil was being heated enough to mimic the viscosity of the thinner oil then the oil temp would reflect this, which it typically doesn't.
Also oil pump drive load and windage load 'should' be lower with the thinner oil even when sitting on the relief valve.
Im not discounting what you're saying, just saying that im not convinced and questioning things can lead to learning.

[dannobee]

A few of the smaller companies don't have the facilities to blend their own oils. Redline is made by ConocoPhillips.

This is incorrect. Redline is still blended in their original facility in Benicia, California. Their chief chemist and VP is formerly from Lubrizol. The polyol esters they use are from Hatco.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenan ... 00827790=1

Peter Filice used to sponsor us for oil way back when. I think just before Roy got onboard. I have no affiliation with them now, but at the time, Peter was big on PAO as the base stock. Is that still the case?

[RDY4WAR]

Not sure why that was the case there, but I've seen it several times where the lighter oil picked up ET. On the dyno, it's common to see ~1% power loss per oil grade over the ideal viscosity for the clearances, load, and operating temp. It could be that the relatively low rpm wasn't creating a lot of ad

What happens with way too thick oil is that bearings oil flow is limited. With limited oil flow bearing temperature rises and actual oil viscosity especially in con rod bearings is very thin. It's actually very easy to burn con rod bearings with too thick oil and high rpm.

And if 5w-30 is also too thick oil for operation - oil pressure is limited with oil pump overpressure relief from low rpm there will be no difference in engine power output.

That's true though the increased hydrodynamic friction from the higher viscosity would still be present regardless of how it got there. The difference would also be seen in the rings. Any bearing damage from excessive viscosity would likely come from cavitation. You have higher viscosity, lower temperature, and increased oil pressure, all 3 of which increase aeration. It's possible for the oil to become aerated enough that the oil film becomes compromised under load and causes bearing cavitation. Oil pumps are positive displacement (which is why oil pressure increases with higher viscosity) so the flow won't be drastically less until the oil gets to a point it just can't get through the passages. The biggest issue with that would be at the oil filter where the high viscosity will greatly increase the pressure drop across the filter media and force the bypass open.

There's a mile long list of other factors as well though. Redline contains a good bit of ester which has high surface adhesion and can increase the friction coefficient at high concentrations so that could've played a factor in his case. Who knows. We live in a very dynamic world.

[David Redszus]

Oil viscosity is a function of temperature; the units of measure are the centiStoke (cSt).
The actual viscosity of a given oil will vary considerably as the engine goes from ambient to fully operational temperature.
In addition, oil sump temperatures do not reflect the oil temperature at the point of lubrication, which are typically much higher than sump temps.

It would be very interesting to see a graph of oil viscosity (cSt) plotted against temperature.

[RDY4WAR]

Oil viscosity is a function of temperature; the units of measure are the centiStoke (cSt).
The actual viscosity of a given oil will vary considerably as the engine goes from ambient to fully operational temperature.
In addition, oil sump temperatures do not reflect the oil temperature at the point of lubrication, which are typically much higher than sump temps.

It would be very interesting to see a graph of oil viscosity (cSt) plotted against temperature.

The bearing temp can be up to 75*F above the sump temp as seen in NASCAR engines running 0w-20 oil with 280*F sump temps and ~355*F oil temp at bearing exit when screaming at 8000 rpm around Daytona.

This is a quick graph done with Widman's viscosity calculator. I used the situation above. The blue is Penrite HPR50 40w-70 and red is Redline HP 5w-30. It's in 2 different scales (in *C) to show the full range from 0*C to 150*C. This is kinematic viscosity only so just the viscosity when sitting in the pan. Dynamic viscosity will of course be different than this with the conventional HPR50 likely shearing more at high temps, making the difference between them less than seen here up at 150+*C.

Penrite HPR50 40w-70 vs Redline HP 5w-30 graph 1.jpg

Penrite HPR50 40w-70 vs Redline HP 5w-30 graph 2.jpg