Break in oil magic

[Geoff2]

Let me guess. Joe Gibbs oil. Comp Cams oil. Etc. Do they have their own refineries? I doubt it. I suspect they are just re-labeled oil from one of the big oil companies.

[PSA]

Let me guess. Joe Gibbs oil. Comp Cams oil. Etc. Do they have their own refineries? I doubt it. I suspect they are just re-labeled oil from one of the big oil companies.

Very few have refinement plants for base oils, but how they blend different base oils and different additives can most definitely be different.
But some of them might also be the same blend as others, it's hard to know.
If it's a classified (API, ACEA) oil it's more likely to be the same as some other oil on the market as it costs a lot of money to do that.

[BradH]

Hey "other guy", ya' got that BR30 VOA handy?

[GARY C]

Everyone has their oil and break in procedure... Nothing anyone says here will change that.

[tuffxf]

G,day,
Was always under the impression that temperature and pressure was needed to get the zinc in the oil to attach itself to the lobe and lifters and create a sacrificial lubricant film
Cheers

[allencr267]

Magic?
No, nothing is going to save a bad assembly and/or component, but maybe give it a few more seconds until its life turns sad.

[RDY4WAR]

Hey "other guy", ya' got that BR30 VOA handy?

I keep forgetting it when I'm at my computer. Here's where I put the VOA of it in a comparison with VR1.

One of the links in NO2Mike's post on page 2 shows a VOA of it as well.

Valvoline VR1 vs Driven BR30.jpg

[RDY4WAR]

Let me guess. Joe Gibbs oil. Comp Cams oil. Etc. Do they have their own refineries? I doubt it. I suspect they are just re-labeled oil from one of the big oil companies.

A few of the smaller companies don't have the facilities to blend their own oils. Redline is made by ConocoPhillips. Driven used to be made by Warren in cooperation with Lubrizol, but I'm not sure if that's still the case since Lake left. Another facility blends the oils to the brand's requested specs. Other brands have their own blending facility and lab like High Performance Lubricants and Amsoil. HPL is probably the pinnacle in this regard with huge indoor stainless tanks and a facility so clean you could eat off the floor.

I've known Lake for quite a while. He's admittedly more of a tribologist than a chemist, where as I'm kinda the opposite. He's right at home with Total Seal now. Piston rings are a tribologist's wet dream.

Very few companies produce base oils and additives, a lot of which are under patent so others couldn't do much about it if they wanted to.

For example, here's a couple pictures of the High Performance Lubricants facility showing their indoor blending tanks and totes upon totes of additives. Not all small blenders outsource their blending.

9-A710-AC5-FCBF-4-E41-A2-B4-C5-AC1-F935-D1-F.jpg

3287-C987-A15-E-43-AA-B443-0-CFE01-FD52-D3.jpg

[1972ho]

https://youtu.be/jMyMR3KkUIE

[David Redszus]

Just curious.

What specifically do we expect a "break-in oil" to do that a normal motor oil does not do?

By "specifically" I mean what is the expected effect of the oil on each part of the engine: rings, valves, cams,
bearings, pumps, etc.?

Does the time period available for break-in make a difference as well?

The main thing with the break-in oil is additive response. There's 3 ways that ZDDP becomes active: heat, pressure, and friction. On initial startup, you have neither heat nor high pressure so you need friction. The right type of ZDDP (short-chained, secondary alkyl), that'll be more reactive at low temperatures, helps a lot as well. Common non-breakin oils, including racing oils, don't have as good of reactivity at low temperatures, mostly due to the type of ZDDP used (blended 70/30 primary/secondary alkyl), the amount of detergents used, and interference from friction modifiers and extreme pressure additives.

The intent is to get an anti-wear tribofilm established as quick as possible to minimize wear during break-in as much as possible. The rings transition through all 3 lubrication regimes, experiencing mixed and boundary lubrication at TDC and BDC and ~20 degrees of rotation each direction from TDC and BDC. ZDDP is active only in mixed and boundary lubrication so getting that AW film established as quick as possible will help keep down ring wear during break-in and help with sealing. The bearings operate solely in full hydrodynamic lubrication so there's no effect there. The base oil is more important there. The valvetrain is the same with wanting that AW film on the lobes, lifters, pushrod tips, rocker tips, etc...

A common API oil like Rotella or "racing" oil like VR1 will still allow the engine to break-in, but the break-in will take longer and accrue more wear in the process.

The ZDDP write-up by RDY4WAR is extremely useful in the understanding of how the additive works.
This is an attempt to build on the insight provided, filling in additional information that might further assist proper understanding.

The principle components of ZDDP are phosphorus and sulfur in the form of P2S5. Starting with DDP (DialkylDithioPhosphate acid) and hydrogen sulfide, which is an acid, zinc oxide is added to neutralize the Ph value to form ZDDP, using primary and secondary alcohols.

Upon initial exposure to ferrous metal surfaces at normal temperatures, sulfur from ZDDP forms a protective film layer of iron sulfide. On iron, not aluminum.

Next, with increasing temperature, phosphate reacts to form films of short chain ortho and metaphosphates (with bits of sulfur). The chains become longer toward the surface forming a phosphate “glass” region, providing anti-wear protection.
Although the rate of film formation is directly proportional to temperature, a stronger correlation exists as quantified by the actual distance that the metals slide or rub against each other.

ZDDPs are used in motor oils as anti-wear and anti-oxidants. Primary and secondary ZDDPs are both used but secondary ZDDPs are preferred to provide increased EP activity for cam and valve trains during break-in. ZDDPs are generally used with detergents, dispersants, viscosity improvers, and other anti-oxidants in concentrations as high as 25%.

ZDDPs are also used in hydraulic fluids as anti-wear and anti-oxidants in lower concentrations.

ZDDPs are used in EP applications such as gear oils, greases and metalworking fluids. Secondary ZDDPs are preferred due to their thermal instability resulting in quick film formation.

Since ZDDPs come in several forms, along with many other lubricant additives, the proper selection process is difficult without professional assistance. Zinc levels do not indicate the type of ZDDP composition or efficacy; in fact they often obscure reality.

Perhaps a comprehensive lab oil analysis would reveal the concentration levels of primary and secondary ZDDP compounds.
That is something I have not yet examined.

[BradH]

Hey "other guy", ya' got that BR30 VOA handy?

I keep forgetting it when I'm at my computer. Here's where I put the VOA of it in a comparison with VR1.

One of the links in NO2Mike's post on page 2 shows a VOA of it as well.

Valvoline VR1 vs Driven BR30.jpg

I forgot to say "Thanks!" for posting that.

[nhrastocker]

RDY4WAR “So what type and viscosity oil would you think that a 500 hp dragrace only car that runs 10:70 @123.00 mph with a weight of 3500# turning about 7500-8100 rpm with bearing main and rod clearance at .002-.0023 needs would be a strict race only only oil are a performance passenger car oil.

Running Maxima 0W-20 Synthetic on an E/SA Chevy 350, running your same ET and speed.
Running Maxima PS 0W on a A/SMA Comp Eliminator engine

[RDY4WAR]

RDY4WAR “So what type and viscosity oil would you think that a 500 hp dragrace only car that runs 10:70 @123.00 mph with a weight of 3500# turning about 7500-8100 rpm with bearing main and rod clearance at .002-.0023 needs would be a strict race only only oil are a performance passenger car oil.

Sorry, I missed this post earlier.

High Performance Lubricants Bad Ass 0w-20 would be my choice if your oil temps don't go above ~180*F. I use a 0w-12 oil from them in my car with similar clearances, but making less power.

186513412_125894139522554_8769629419924360575_n.jpg

Here's a VOA on that particular oil. The lat tech didn't really know what to make of it. (viscosity was 5w-30 for this sample, but formula is the same for all grades)

HPL Bad Ass Racing 5w-30 rerun.jpg

Driven XP2 0w-20 and Maxima Synthetic 0w-20 (as mentioned above) are also good choices.

[Bob Hollinshead]

Moly content looks high in that?

RDY4WAR “So what type and viscosity oil would you think that a 500 hp dragrace only car that runs 10:70 @123.00 mph with a weight of 3500# turning about 7500-8100 rpm with bearing main and rod clearance at .002-.0023 needs would be a strict race only only oil are a performance passenger car oil.

Sorry, I missed this post earlier.

High Performance Lubricants Bad Ass 0w-20 would be my choice if your oil temps don't go above ~180*F. I use a 0w-12 oil from them in my car with similar clearances, but making less power.

186513412_125894139522554_8769629419924360575_n.jpg

Here's a VOA on that particular oil. The lat tech didn't really know what to make of it. (viscosity was 5w-30 for this sample, but formula is the same for all grades)

HPL Bad Ass Racing 5w-30 rerun.jpg

Driven XP2 0w-20 and Maxima Synthetic 0w-20 (as mentioned above) are also good choices.

[Bob Hollinshead]

I've been hearing nothing but good things about Gibb's assembly lube grease for flat tappet cam break in. I wonder what is in that compared to the moly type lubes dedicated for coating cams?