Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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crazy_caseys_customs
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by crazy_caseys_customs »

rustbucket79 wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:38 pm Displacement rule class?

I ask because I would much rather build a 331 internally balanced than a 289, where the torque coming out of the turns will far outweigh what a light 289 could do.

I have a Scat superlight crank, good stuff but where it is light doesn’t have much influence since it’s relatively close to the centre of the crank. The light weight flywheel and clutch make much more sense.
Sorta…

I am building this short block to replace an under built short block I built a couple of years ago. Right now it’s just “for fun”, with the thought that I would be able to change the heads and run in that displacement limited class in the very near future.

It makes sense what you said about the lightweight crank. Where I was hung up on that idea is that most of the aftermarket cranks that have published weight numbers are about 10 lbs heavier than my stock 1M 289 crank. I get that adding strength often means adding mass…I was just wrestling with the idea.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by EDC »

Interesting.

My 289 based project is a bit different.

Image
Bored 4.040" - decked - deburred

Image
RPM forged crankshaft - 2.875" stroke

Image
Probe Ultra-lite rods - stock length

Image
Diamond flat top pistons - lightened

Image
Twisted Wedge 205 Cylinder heads - solid roller valvetrain

Image
Original Canfield EFI Intake manifold

Backed up with a G-Force 101A transmission.

Hope to finish this latest change-over this winter.

Image
"Quality" is like buying oats. You can pay a fair price for it and get some good quality oats,
or you can get it a hell of a lot cheaper, when it's already been through the horse.

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by BILL-C »

My crew and I have built countless road race 289's with many different rod lengths. The long rod combinations usually show a little more top end on dyno, but the drivers almost always like the 5.155 rod length combos the best . They claim the stock rod length combo pulls off corners better.Stock 289 blocks eventually crack in the main web area on 450 + hp engines that get run hard. A fast road racer will put more stress and wear on engine in one weekend event than a drag racer will put on in 10 lifetimes. Keep the flywheel and clutch as light as possible. They are miserable to drive on street, but much faster on track. Do not race on pump gas! You will have detonation at 11-1 and knock the main webbing out real quick.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by crazy_caseys_customs »

EDC wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:17 am Interesting.

My 289 based project is a bit different.

Image
Bored 4.040" - decked - deburred

Image
RPM forged crankshaft - 2.875" stroke

Image
Probe Ultra-lite rods - stock length

Image
Diamond flat top pistons - lightened

Image
Twisted Wedge 205 Cylinder heads - solid roller valvetrain

Image
Original Canfield EFI Intake manifold

Backed up with a G-Force 101A transmission.

Hope to finish this latest change-over this winter.

Image
Any chance you could share with me the weights of that crank and those rods?
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by crazy_caseys_customs »

BILL-C wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:44 am My crew and I have built countless road race 289's with many different rod lengths. The long rod combinations usually show a little more top end on dyno, but the drivers almost always like the 5.155 rod length combos the best . They claim the stock rod length combo pulls off corners better.Stock 289 blocks eventually crack in the main web area on 450 + hp engines that get run hard. A fast road racer will put more stress and wear on engine in one weekend event than a drag racer will put on in 10 lifetimes. Keep the flywheel and clutch as light as possible. They are miserable to drive on street, but much faster on track. Do not race on pump gas! You will have detonation at 11-1 and knock the main webbing out real quick.
My hope was to be able to run on the street on 91 octane, if slightly detuned, and do track events on race gas, with that combination. I might err on the higher side of 10:1 (10.8 or so), but that was the reasoning behind not going to 12.5:1 like all of the racers.

The “race only” clutches like Tilton 7.75” button clutch (~10 lbs), and even the ultralight stock appearing race clutch sold by Cobra Automotive (~22 lbs) all say “no street use”. I assumed that they just wouldn’t hold up to any slipping, so something like the McLeod/Ram combo (29.5 lbs) seemed like the best possible compromise for a car that will still see some limited street miles. That’s still a savings of 20 lbs from stock, but am I foooing myself that the street manners will be significantly improved?

My last question about your comments is whether I would be better served to try and find a different OEM block, or is the ‘66 289 block as good as the rest?

Thank You
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by dannobee »

Is this a road race car that will see limited street use, or a street car that will see limited road racing?

The lightweight clutch and flywheel will simply make a huge difference, bigger than a lightweight crank, especially if you're starting with 26lbs of clutch and flywheel. With respect to driving a racing clutch (Tilton/circle track/low MOI) on the street, well, we did get those cars on and off track and trailer and even drove them in parades and the clutches didn't seem to mind. And Tilton does sell low MOI dual and triple disc clutches for street use in high end Porsches and Lamborghinis, so they must have something that works. Call them up and see what they have.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by crazy_caseys_customs »

dannobee wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 11:26 am Is this a road race car that will see limited street use, or a street car that will see limited road racing?

The lightweight clutch and flywheel will simply make a huge difference, bigger than a lightweight crank, especially if you're starting with 26lbs of clutch and flywheel. With respect to driving a racing clutch (Tilton/circle track/low MOI) on the street, well, we did get those cars on and off track and trailer and even drove them in parades and the clutches didn't seem to mind. And Tilton does sell low MOI dual and triple disc clutches for street use in high end Porsches and Lamborghinis, so they must have something that works. Call them up and see what they have.
I get that trying to have a streetable race car is a sort of fools errand. Pick one, right? I WANT to build a dedicated track car, but I’m a few years off from that, budget wise. And I have a “toy” car right now, with legitimate racing suspension and brakes, and putting seats, harnesses, and a roll bar in it will make it legal for HDPE, which at least get’s my feet wet.

Building the engine for it, as putting engines together is the part of this hobby that I enjoy the most, is just my way of making the car a bit more fun, and more importantly, bullet proof. I don’t want to be thinking about my stock crank, rods, and hypereutectic pistons when I’m trying to learn how to drive fast.

To your point, I think if you break down miles driven, it will truly be a 50/50 car. I did about 250 street miles last year, and about the same the year before. I have yet to do my first “track day”, but that’s the plan for this coming Spring…it’s also my way of trying to drive the car more than I currently do.

I’m starting with a 30 lb flywheel and a 23 lb clutch (pressure plate and disc). The McLeod Flywheel is 11 lbs, and the Ram clutch is 13.5 lbs, and their 6-puck road race disk is 3 lbs, so the apples and oranges comparison is 53 lbs vs 27.5 lbs.

Tilton makes a street clutch for Ford small block, but it isn’t light. I could call them and ask about the “streetability”
of their 7.25” clutch, I guess. I feel like companies provide relatively practiced responses to questions like that; you tend to get more honesty talking to people actually using the parts.

Is the reason a “race only clutch” isn’t recommended for the street BECAUSE of the weight?

Update: After getting on Tilton’s site, it does look like their Cerametallic clutches are rated for limited street use. They don’t make anything “plug and play”, but I might be able to figure it out. Looks like that would save another 7 or 8 pounds, anyway…
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by frnkeore »

BILL-C wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:44 am My crew and I have built countless road race 289's with many different rod lengths. The long rod combinations usually show a little more top end on dyno, but the drivers almost always like the 5.155 rod length combos the best . They claim the stock rod length combo pulls off corners better.Stock 289 blocks eventually crack in the main web area on 450 + hp engines that get run hard. A fast road racer will put more stress and wear on engine in one weekend event than a drag racer will put on in 10 lifetimes. Keep the flywheel and clutch as light as possible. They are miserable to drive on street, but much faster on track. Do not race on pump gas! You will have detonation at 11-1 and knock the main webbing out real quick.
Bill, I'm curious if you have ever tried the 5.315 rod length. Ford went to that length for all the Indy engines, including the push rod engine. I never read anything indicating why they used that rod length.

Do the long rods (how long are we talking) move the whole power band up?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

casey, my suggestion would be to to join SCCA and go through their drivers school to learn the "trade" and get a Regional license. It only takes one year and you'll be goo to go, for most other racing programs.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by BILL-C »

frnkeore wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:17 pm
BILL-C wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:44 am My crew and I have built countless road race 289's with many different rod lengths. The long rod combinations usually show a little more top end on dyno, but the drivers almost always like the 5.155 rod length combos the best . They claim the stock rod length combo pulls off corners better.Stock 289 blocks eventually crack in the main web area on 450 + hp engines that get run hard. A fast road racer will put more stress and wear on engine in one weekend event than a drag racer will put on in 10 lifetimes. Keep the flywheel and clutch as light as possible. They are miserable to drive on street, but much faster on track. Do not race on pump gas! You will have detonation at 11-1 and knock the main webbing out real quick.
Bill, I'm curious if you have ever tried the 5.315 rod length. Ford went to that length for all the Indy engines, including the push rod engine. I never read anything indicating why they used that rod length.

Do the long rods (how long are we talking) move the whole power band up?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

casey, my suggestion would be to to join SCCA and go through their drivers school to learn the "trade" and get a Regional license. It only takes one year and you'll be goo to go, for most other racing programs.
Yes, we have used 5.315 length rods a few times. Some of the original T/A engines used that length rod also. The rod length change does show a subtle change in power curve on dyno, but not to the extent that you would expect the drivers to notice, yet they do notice.I suspect that it is more of a change in acceleration rate on track. The short rod, heavy piston combo is definitely heavier yet accelerates quicker.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by EDC »

BILL-C wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:11 am Yes, we have used 5.315 length rods a few times. Some of the original T/A engines used that length rod also. The rod length change does show a subtle change in power curve on dyno, but not to the extent that you would expect the drivers to notice, yet they do notice.I suspect that it is more of a change in acceleration rate on track. The short rod, heavy piston combo is definitely heavier yet accelerates quicker.
My pistons are a tick over 400 grams... 1.600" compression height. Not really "heavy"...
"Quality" is like buying oats. You can pay a fair price for it and get some good quality oats,
or you can get it a hell of a lot cheaper, when it's already been through the horse.

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by PackardV8 »

crazy_caseys_customs wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 12:25 pm you tend to get more honesty talking to people actually using the parts.
The short rod, heavy piston combo is definitely heavier yet accelerates quicker.
Counterintuitive, yet proven by his experience.

And "heavier" by not enough to cause any problems. Chasing light weight for its own sake can have unintended consequences. The 289" stroke is so short, the pistons so light, diminishing returns set in quickly.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by rustbucket79 »

crazy_caseys_customs wrote: Tue Jul 13, 2021 1:36 am
rustbucket79 wrote: Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:38 pm Displacement rule class?

I ask because I would much rather build a 331 internally balanced than a 289, where the torque coming out of the turns will far outweigh what a light 289 could do.

I have a Scat superlight crank, good stuff but where it is light doesn’t have much influence since it’s relatively close to the centre of the crank. The light weight flywheel and clutch make much more sense.
Sorta…

I am building this short block to replace an under built short block I built a couple of years ago. Right now it’s just “for fun”, with the thought that I would be able to change the heads and run in that displacement limited class in the very near future.

It makes sense what you said about the lightweight crank. Where I was hung up on that idea is that most of the aftermarket cranks that have published weight numbers are about 10 lbs heavier than my stock 1M 289 crank. I get that adding strength often means adding mass…I was just wrestling with the idea.
Part of the added weight is in the counter weight to internally balance the crank, allowing zero imbalance externals.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by BILL-C »

We almost always use Honda 1.888 rod journal custom cranks and custom billet rods, so even or "heavy" parts aren't real heavy.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by Kenny M »

If your using the original two piece main seal block, do your self a favor and have the block machined for a One piece main seal if your using a aftermarket crankshaft.
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Re: Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

Post by piston guy »

DLC pins are in the $50-60 range. Great idea but not an "absolute". 1.065 compression height piston will work. Should be in the low 400s with a dome , less as a flat top. EZ on parts @7,500 all day long.
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