Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

[289nate]

Ed’s rods are the same length. The aftermarket pretty much Abandoned the 289 length Rod. You could have Crower do you a set. But why when you can just mill the deck of the block to bring the piston where you want it to be. Save a ton of money.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

Decreasing the rod journal size from stock 2.123 to 2.0 or better yet 1.888 will have a more posative impact on engine oil temp and high rpm durability than any fooling around with rod lengths.

Can a 289 crank go a quarter inch under sized on the rod journals? I’ve been told you should throw them away at 0.030” under, but I’ve been told a lot of things that are wrong over the years…

[crazy_caseys_customs]

I told you they are the exact same thing that Ed posted. Of course they are the Probe AKA RPM ultralight rods. And they are the stock 5.090 inch length.

You did, but what Bill posted was a 5.155” rod.

And I don’t know much, but I do know that milling a 289 block to use a 5.090” rod with a 289 piston is getting the deck pretty darn thin…especially when a few different vendors make a decent 5.155” rod.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

I’m amazed at how complicated a boring old small block Ford can become. A 331 with the cheapest of parts and reasonable heads will do the job here, it’s not like this is a Super Stock or Competition Eliminator short block.

I’m not building it to blast down the quarter mile 10 seconds at a time. I want to be able to hold it at 7,000+ for up to a minute at a time. The cheapest parts are NOT going to do that…at least not more than a couple of times.

[BILL-C]

Decreasing the rod journal size from stock 2.123 to 2.0 or better yet 1.888 will have a more posative impact on engine oil temp and high rpm durability than any fooling around with rod lengths.

The weight of the pistons and the rod length are way more important than the diameter of the rod bearing. Long rod light piston with a small journal is the best..
Long rods have the weight at the crank.

The rod bearing diameter has a major impact on oil temps. We don't build serious road race 289's or 302's anymore with 2.123 diameter rod journals because the oil temps get too high in longer races. If you plan on running near the front of the pack you have to run a 289 real hard. 7500 rpm minimum. Even with a good oil cooler it is difficult to keep oil temp under 250 in a 20 minute race with a stock journal crank, but with Honda journal size the oil temp will stay 220 degrees all race long even in 90 minute enduros with same size cooler. Drag racers never run long enough to know about these issues.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

Decreasing the rod journal size from stock 2.123 to 2.0 or better yet 1.888 will have a more posative impact on engine oil temp and high rpm durability than any fooling around with rod lengths.

The weight of the pistons and the rod length are way more important than the diameter of the rod bearing. Long rod light piston with a small journal is the best..
Long rods have the weight at the crank.

The rod bearing diameter has a major impact on oil temps. We don't build serious road race 289's or 302's anymore with 2.123 diameter rod journals because the oil temps get too high in longer races. If you plan on running near the front of the pack you have to run a 289 real hard. 7500 rpm minimum. Even with a good oil cooler it is difficult to keep oil temp under 250 in a 20 minute race with a stock journal crank, but with Honda journal size the oil temp will stay 220 degrees all race long even in 90 minute enduros with same size cooler. Drag racers never run long enough to know about these issues.

Bill,

You didn’t answer my question, though. Can a standard 289 crank, or one of those RPM 289 cranks, be cut that far (an 1/8” for 2.00” or a quarter inch for 1.88”)? I only ask, because there’s no way that a custom billet crankshaft is in my budget. And while nobody wants to build an engine for a class to run at the back of the pack, I just want to be IN the pack, and I’m sure there will be somebody to play with no matter what budget I build to.

After many years of BIG dreams, I’m about to turn 42 and I still haven’t “done it”, so, I’m trying to temper dreams and expectations with the harsh reality of my own financial limitations.

[1972ho]

I sure believe you can you just have to find a crankshaft shop that would do it but you would only get half of .123 going to 2.000 I don’t know about that Honda journal size.

[BILL-C]

The weight of the pistons and the rod length are way more important than the diameter of the rod bearing. Long rod light piston with a small journal is the best..
Long rods have the weight at the crank.

The rod bearing diameter has a major impact on oil temps. We don't build serious road race 289's or 302's anymore with 2.123 diameter rod journals because the oil temps get too high in longer races. If you plan on running near the front of the pack you have to run a 289 real hard. 7500 rpm minimum. Even with a good oil cooler it is difficult to keep oil temp under 250 in a 20 minute race with a stock journal crank, but with Honda journal size the oil temp will stay 220 degrees all race long even in 90 minute enduros with same size cooler. Drag racers never run long enough to know about these issues.

Bill,

You didn’t answer my question, though. Can a standard 289 crank, or one of those RPM 289 cranks, be cut that far (an 1/8” for 2.00” or a quarter inch for 1.88”)? I only ask, because there’s no way that a custom billet crankshaft is in my budget. And while nobody wants to build an engine for a class to run at the back of the pack, I just want to be IN the pack, and I’m sure there will be somebody to play with no matter what budget I build to.

After many years of BIG dreams, I’m about to turn 42 and I still haven’t “done it”, so, I’m trying to temper dreams and expectations with the harsh reality of my own financial limitations.

No, you cannot cut a stock cast 289 crank down to honda rod journal size. As a novice you will find out in a hurry that it will take all the skill and balls you have to even keep the pack in sight. The absolute last thing in the world you need is the worry about your engine blowing up. Most novices can't even look at the gauges while racing. Severe over revs because of bad down shifts and burned up bearings are the two main road race engine killers. Call John at Cobra Automotive and see if they will sell you one of their custom cranks , a set of rods, and an oil pan . You will save yourself a ton of money in the long run by taking advantage of the untold thousands of dollars they and their customers spent on r+d and buy parts that actually work.

[EDC]

Ed’s rods are the same length. The aftermarket pretty much Abandoned the 289 length Rod. You could have Crower do you a set. But why when you can just mill the deck of the block to bring the piston where you want it to be. Save a ton of money.

Mine are not 5.090" 302 rods

Stock 289 - 5.155" center to center.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

The rod bearing diameter has a major impact on oil temps. We don't build serious road race 289's or 302's anymore with 2.123 diameter rod journals because the oil temps get too high in longer races. If you plan on running near the front of the pack you have to run a 289 real hard. 7500 rpm minimum. Even with a good oil cooler it is difficult to keep oil temp under 250 in a 20 minute race with a stock journal crank, but with Honda journal size the oil temp will stay 220 degrees all race long even in 90 minute enduros with same size cooler. Drag racers never run long enough to know about these issues.

Bill,

You didn’t answer my question, though. Can a standard 289 crank, or one of those RPM 289 cranks, be cut that far (an 1/8” for 2.00” or a quarter inch for 1.88”)? I only ask, because there’s no way that a custom billet crankshaft is in my budget. And while nobody wants to build an engine for a class to run at the back of the pack, I just want to be IN the pack, and I’m sure there will be somebody to play with no matter what budget I build to.

After many years of BIG dreams, I’m about to turn 42 and I still haven’t “done it”, so, I’m trying to temper dreams and expectations with the harsh reality of my own financial limitations.

No, you cannot cut a stock cast 289 crank down to honda rod journal size. As a novice you will find out in a hurry that it will take all the skill and balls you have to even keep the pack in sight. The absolute last thing in the world you need is the worry about your engine blowing up. Most novices can't even look at the gauges while racing. Severe over revs because of bad down shifts and burned up bearings are the two main road race engine killers. Call John at Cobra Automotive and see if they will sell you one of their custom cranks , a set of rods, and an oil pan . You will save yourself a ton of money in the long run by taking advantage of the untold thousands of dollars they and their customers spent on r+d and buy parts that actually work.

I’m not going to sit here and try to argue that this isn’t good advice, but there’s only a small handful of guys in that group who actually run the custom cranks and rods sold by CA. And I know for a fact that those rotating assemblies are way North of $6k, which is inline with their complete engines, which are well North of $25k.

Would I be better off if I could afford to spend $100k right out of the gate to have the best of everything? Probably…

Should I give up on my dream of vintage racing my Mustang because I can’t?

[289nate]

Never saw where they ever made them in the 289 length. Learn some thing every day. Maybe they were just not advertised on probes site? But if I zoom up on the photo it obviously shows it’s 5.155. Not 5.090

[frnkeore]

What are the rules, regarding the blocks that can be used? Can you use 6 bolt and/or after market blocks?

[BILL-C]

A lot of people don't really understand what vintage road racing is all about. Yes there are some groups that are more into putting around doing glorified parade laps. However, most groups like SVRA are legit all-out racing. It's wild to see guys beat the hell out of their 250k Shelby mustangs and vettes and multi million dollar AC cobras. Check out some in car videos on Cobra Automotive's website. Curt Vogt is always interesting to watch. You will see why it is so important to have top quality cranks, rods, and oil pans. Transmissions too!

[dannobee]

Bill, you bring up a great point regarding exactly what kind of "road racing" is intended. Some are that goofy parade lap stuff where drivers aren't supposed to get closer than 50 ft from another car. Then there are the "real" vintage races. One of my customers years ago raced three original Cobras, two 427's and a 289. The 289 was clearly the "better" overall car of the three. The 427's seemed to always break something and I have not so fond memories of replacing/overhauling rear ends. IIRC, they used Dana 44 parts. Even years ago, I was stupefied why someone would take a $1-2 million dollar car on a track with other yahoos who could wreck you in an instant.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

A lot of people don't really understand what vintage road racing is all about. Yes there are some groups that are more into putting around doing glorified parade laps. However, most groups like SVRA are legit all-out racing. It's wild to see guys beat the hell out of their 250k Shelby mustangs and vettes and multi million dollar AC cobras. Check out some in car videos on Cobra Automotive's website. Curt Vogt is always interesting to watch. You will see why it is so important to have top quality cranks, rods, and oil pans. Transmissions too!

Bill, you bring up a great point regarding exactly what kind of "road racing" is intended. Some are that goofy parade lap stuff where drivers aren't supposed to get closer than 50 ft from another car. Then there are the "real" vintage races. One of my customers years ago raced three original Cobras, two 427's and a 289. The 289 was clearly the "better" overall car of the three. The 427's seemed to always break something and I have not so fond memories of replacing/overhauling rear ends. IIRC, they used Dana 44 parts. Even years ago, I was stupefied why someone would take a $1-2 million dollar car on a track with other yahoos who could wreck you in an instant.

I’m not sure who you guys are trying to impress. The top of the field is led by multi hundred thousand (million!?) dollar race budgets and professional drivers from NASCAR and Formula 1. Tomy Drissi is a current Trans Am champion who races vintage Trans Am for fun. And Jacques Lazzier used to campaign a B-Production Shelby in SVRA.

But I also know (via the forums) a guy who is “quick” in a legitimate B-Production car that ran for 8 years on it’s original (albeit K-code) stock crankshaft. And another guy with a low-budget 65 Coupe built using the RPM International parts in a Mexican block, and he’s had at least one podium. I guess maybe a schedule conflict kept all of the fast guys away that weekend!? I have no idea. He’s in the Midwest and I’m on the West Coast, so we’ve never actual met, but I’ve followed his build on the Mustang forum. His in car videos look fast, and he’s finding plenty of other cars at his level to play with.

I’m not trying to be an A-hole. I appreciate the advice. The condescension not as much. I have had more fun in my life driving slow cars at their limit, than driving fast cars at my limit. Maybe that looks like a glorified parade lap compared to the guy with a million dollar budget, but from the drivers seat it’s almost always just as fun. If I can afford to do this for a decade, maybe I can save up enough money to build a really trick race engine. Maybe I won’t; maybe my skill will outpace my budget, and I’ll get frustrated and quit.

The only way I know to find out for sure is to try.