Am I on the Right Track; Budget Lightweight 289 SBF Short Block Build…

[blackford]

A lot of people don't really understand what vintage road racing is all about. Yes there are some groups that are more into putting around doing glorified parade laps. However, most groups like SVRA are legit all-out racing. It's wild to see guys beat the hell out of their 250k Shelby mustangs and vettes and multi million dollar AC cobras. Check out some in car videos on Cobra Automotive's website. Curt Vogt is always interesting to watch. You will see why it is so important to have top quality cranks, rods, and oil pans. Transmissions too!

Bill, you bring up a great point regarding exactly what kind of "road racing" is intended. Some are that goofy parade lap stuff where drivers aren't supposed to get closer than 50 ft from another car. Then there are the "real" vintage races. One of my customers years ago raced three original Cobras, two 427's and a 289. The 289 was clearly the "better" overall car of the three. The 427's seemed to always break something and I have not so fond memories of replacing/overhauling rear ends. IIRC, they used Dana 44 parts. Even years ago, I was stupefied why someone would take a $1-2 million dollar car on a track with other yahoos who could wreck you in an instant.

I’m not sure who you guys are trying to impress.

You'll find that the members of this forum are legit and not ones that attempt to impress anyone.

But I also know (via the forums) a guy who is “quick” in a legitimate B-Production car that ran for 8 years on it’s original (albeit K-code) stock crankshaft.

K code cranks are no different from A or C code cranks. They may have been hand selected for brinell hardness, but that's about it. They can handle quite a bit of abuse and RPM.

[frnkeore]

K code cranks are no different from A or C code cranks. They may have been hand selected for brinell hardness, but that's about it. They can handle quite a bit of abuse and RPM.

And they had a extra balance weight for the 3/8 rod bolts and nuts.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

A lot of people don't really understand what vintage road racing is all about. Yes there are some groups that are more into putting around doing glorified parade laps. However, most groups like SVRA are legit all-out racing. It's wild to see guys beat the hell out of their 250k Shelby mustangs and vettes and multi million dollar AC cobras. Check out some in car videos on Cobra Automotive's website. Curt Vogt is always interesting to watch. You will see why it is so important to have top quality cranks, rods, and oil pans. Transmissions too!

Bill, you bring up a great point regarding exactly what kind of "road racing" is intended. Some are that goofy parade lap stuff where drivers aren't supposed to get closer than 50 ft from another car. Then there are the "real" vintage races. One of my customers years ago raced three original Cobras, two 427's and a 289. The 289 was clearly the "better" overall car of the three. The 427's seemed to always break something and I have not so fond memories of replacing/overhauling rear ends. IIRC, they used Dana 44 parts. Even years ago, I was stupefied why someone would take a $1-2 million dollar car on a track with other yahoos who could wreck you in an instant.

I’m not sure who you guys are trying to impress.

You'll find that the members of this forum are legit and not ones that attempt to impress anyone.

But I also know (via the forums) a guy who is “quick” in a legitimate B-Production car that ran for 8 years on it’s original (albeit K-code) stock crankshaft.

K code cranks are no different from A or C code cranks. They may have been hand selected for brinell hardness, but that's about it. They can handle quite a bit of abuse and RPM.

But Tracy, you’re telling me things in direct contradiction to what the “legit” folks are telling me…

What Bill-C and Dannobee are inferring, basically, is that anybody who doesn’t have $10k plus into their short block is just going to be doing “glorified parade laps”. And I guess if you’re out there on a weekend that Tomy Drissi is out there in the Chaparral Camaro, then…yeah…glorified parade laps is all you’re doing, but you gotta start somewhere.

I said that to them as a jab, as most racers I know have pretty thick skin, but it was really more akin to me “tapping out”. They made their point. And if I could afford the $25k+ Cobra Automotive turn-key engine, I would buy it. I can’t. And I’m thankful to Bill-C, because, honestly, crank pin size and bearing speed weren’t even on my radar, and they should be.

If I didn’t know a couple folks running some of these events with similar budgets to my own, I might think that what I want to do is not accomplishable, but they are. And they keep telling me that they’re having a blast. And at least one of them is a complete novice, so I gotta think that some of what Bill-C and Dannobee are saying IS bad advice…

No offense, guys.

And yes, the K code crank I’m referring to, that lasted 8 years in a “quick” car, is essentially a stock 289 crank. Unfortunately, when it let go, it took most of the rest of the engine with it. There’s a lot of latitude, in terms of budget and strength, between a stock bottom end, and a custom billet bottom end built on an aftermarket block. And my budget is somewhere in the middle to lower end of that range.

[dannobee]

I think you missed our points. And I specifically said you could save money on the crank and instead invest in a lightweight clutch and flex plate.

I think the vast majority of us old timers here have either ran, built, or are well aware of "claimer" engines where you're forced by rule to run an engine with economic parts, lest another competitor could "claim" your engine for something around a few hundred dollars. Many of those engines were raced for several years, with nothing more than a cheap freshen up at the end of the season.

The point I was trying to make is to invest the money where we cumulatively thought it would do the most good to get you on the track with a reliable engine, where you wouldn't have to worry about that element of racing.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

I think you missed our points. And I specifically said you could save money on the crank and instead invest in a lightweight clutch and flex plate.

I think the vast majority of us old timers here have either ran, built, or are well aware of "claimer" engines where you're forced by rule to run an engine with economic parts, lest another competitor could "claim" your engine for something around a few hundred dollars. Many of those engines were raced for several years, with nothing more than a cheap freshen up at the end of the season.

The point I was trying to make is to invest the money where we cumulatively thought it would do the most good to get you on the track with a reliable engine, where you wouldn't have to worry about that element of racing.

I guess I maybe did misunderstand, and felt like you were jumping on the “huge budget or go home” bandwagon, too.

I get what you’re saying. I actual already talked with Tom @ CA after reading your suggestions about getting a Tilton dual disc clutch, and that’s now a part of my budget…I just forgot that you were the one who said to do it. So, my apologies.

There have been a ton of comments, and a lot contradictory, but many good points mixed throughout. Kind of enough to make your head spin. I’m gathering that rod length and rot/recip weight isn’t as big of a deal as I initially thought, but I would still like to build a new bottom end, as what I’m currently running is externally balanced, and I feel like that’s going to be the weak link.

And as expensive as machine work is in California, I feel like I’d might as well upgrade the crankshaft and rods within reason when I do build the shortblock. Another member gave me the advice of offset grinding a 302 crank to the 2.00” journal size and 289 stroke (Eagle blem cranks can be had pretty cheap). That might be a good middle ground.

Anyway, thank you for clarifying. Hope I didn’t tick anybody off.

[BILL-C]

My crew and I have built and repaired a couple hundred road race 289's that race all over the world. I have seen where the weak points are and suggested to buy a proper race crank, set of rods, and top quality oil pan to fix these weak points. This is somehow bad advice? Remember that you are sharing that racetrack with a lot of other people that are racing their cars( that they usually have a lot of time and money into) at their limit. If your engine fails and you oil down the track and someone spins in your oil and destroys their car and gets hurt how would you feel? Would their pain be any less if they knew that you saved some money on your race engine by using a cheap BLEM Chinese crank and some cheap rods when better parts were available? Your decisions and actions affect other people also.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

My crew and I have built and repaired a couple hundred road race 289's that race all over the world. I have seen where the weak points are and suggested to buy a proper race crank, set of rods, and top quality oil pan to fix these weak points. This is somehow bad advice? Remember that you are sharing that racetrack with a lot of other people that are racing their cars( that they usually have a lot of time and money into) at their limit. If your engine fails and you oil down the track and someone spins in your oil and destroys their car and gets hurt how would you feel? Would their pain be any less if they knew that you saved some money on your race engine by using a cheap BLEM Chinese crank and some cheap rods when better parts were available? Your decisions and actions affect other people also.

You forgot about the cheap Ford block. Or are you advocated putting a $6,000 rotating assembly in a stock block? I should probably just invest in an electric motor, that way I’m ready for rule changes coming down in the next couple of years. Upside to that is, no oiling down the track and making anybody crash. Won’t that be fun.

[BILL-C]

My crew and I have built and repaired a couple hundred road race 289's that race all over the world. I have seen where the weak points are and suggested to buy a proper race crank, set of rods, and top quality oil pan to fix these weak points. This is somehow bad advice? Remember that you are sharing that racetrack with a lot of other people that are racing their cars( that they usually have a lot of time and money into) at their limit. If your engine fails and you oil down the track and someone spins in your oil and destroys their car and gets hurt how would you feel? Would their pain be any less if they knew that you saved some money on your race engine by using a cheap BLEM Chinese crank and some cheap rods when better parts were available? Your decisions and actions affect other people also.

You forgot about the cheap Ford block. Or are you advocated putting a $6,000 rotating assembly in a stock block? I should probably just invest in an electric motor, that way I’m ready for rule changes coming down in the next couple of years. Upside to that is, no oiling down the track and making anybody crash. Won’t that be fun.

FIA rules require we use period correct proper date code OE 289 blocks for our builds that run in Europe, so yes, we put expensive rotating assemblies in stock blocks all the time. If all you can afford is a stock block then use it. Just keep the hp below 450 and RPM 7500 or less. When the blocks eventually crack they give warning by dropping oil pressure. We just swap the good rotating assembly into another block and continue on. Usually everything can be reused except gaskets, rings, and bearings and those actually look good enough to be tempted to reuse . The sport needs new blood to replace the old guys that are retiring. I'm offering advice to help you succeed and not have to learn all the lessons the hard and expensive way.

[dannobee]

Are there rules for this class? Can you run it a little bigger? Joe Sherman (RIP), aka bigjoe1 here, used to offer a 347 based on a later model junkyard 302 block that would make a reliable 530hp on pump gas. And you could save your 289 block in case you ever want to restore it back to original.

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2007/0 ... can-build/

If you're not encumbered by date code correct blocks and bigger engines are allowed or handicapped by a little weight it might be an option. Remember, the one with the most horsepower isn't always the one in the winners circle.

As far as your friend with 8 years on a race engine before it blew, that's not a crankshaft problem, that's a maintenance problem. Most of us learned the hard way that routine maintenance also means pulling stuff apart and scrutinizing everything with a jaundiced eye once in awhile.

With respect to electric cars, a good friend of mine was an early adopter and had an EV1, one of three T Zero's, one of the first Tesla Roadsters, etc. He called me up to bitch that his Tesla Model S sprung a coolant leak and puked all over his garage. Turns out they use coolant to cool off the electronics inside the motor and when the seals leak, the motor is toast. Since it was out of warranty, the estimate to replace the motor was $19,000. And when he first bought it, it would overheat after only 3 laps at Laguna Seca.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

The sport needs new blood to replace the old guys that are retiring. I'm offering advice to help you succeed and not have to learn all the lessons the hard and expensive way.

I’m not trying to be indignant, but what you’re telling me is that I can’t afford to do this. And it’s something that I’ve been waiting, saving, and building towards for over a decade.

Like I’ve said, I DO appreciate the advice…I just don’t think I can do anything with it, besides keep waiting and saving, and probably not ever actual get the car on the track.

[crazy_caseys_customs]

Are there rules for this class? Can you run it a little bigger? Joe Sherman (RIP), aka bigjoe1 here, used to offer a 347 based on a later model junkyard 302 block that would make a reliable 530hp on pump gas. And you could save your 289 block in case you ever want to restore it back to original.

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2007/0 ... can-build/

If you're not encumbered by date code correct blocks and bigger engines are allowed or handicapped by a little weight it might be an option. Remember, the one with the most horsepower isn't always the one in the winners circle.

As far as your friend with 8 years on a race engine before it blew, that's not a crankshaft problem, that's a maintenance problem. Most of us learned the hard way that routine maintenance also means pulling stuff apart and scrutinizing everything with a jaundiced eye once in awhile.

With respect to electric cars, a good friend of mine was an early adopter and had an EV1, one of three T Zero's, one of the first Tesla Roadsters, etc. He called me up to bitch that his Tesla Model S sprung a coolant leak and puked all over his garage. Turns out they use coolant to cool off the electronics inside the motor and when the seals leak, the motor is toast. Since it was out of warranty, the estimate to replace the motor was $19,000. And when he first bought it, it would overheat after only 3 laps at Laguna Seca.

I didn’t realize that Joe had passed. He has helped me with some good info in the past.

Yes, basically 289 or 302 with a weight penalty. Stock design and materials for most of the critical components. Couple of different ways I could go in terms of class/sanctioning as regards camshaft/valve train. No dry sump oiling. Compression, clutch, and diff are all open. 4 speed required.

I don’t mean to question you, but don’t components (like a stock cast steel crankshaft) just plainly have a finite life span when they are subjected to racing use? Are you just saying he should have caught cracks developing at an end of season tear down and retired the part? I don’t know how lazy or thorough the guy actually is, but I think the failure was towards the end of a season. I thought it was impressive that it lasted through 8 years of abuse…

[dannobee]

When I was a crew chief, I would track green flag laps on every engine, then pull the engines apart at certain intervals and inspect. Certain things were tossed at finite intervals, but other things were run until they failed inspection. Nascar blocks and cranks were juggled around to meet the 358cu in displacement rule. As the bore got bigger, the crank stroke decreased, so often that crank was inspected and set aside for another block. When transponders became widely used, at least tracking the total laps became a lot easier.

[frnkeore]

So, I have to ask, what is wrong with a 4340, internally balanced crank, ground to spec, no matter where it is made?