1 Gallon Fuel Cell?

[RDY4WAR]

Car is a '93 Camaro, dragstrip only, NA LT1 5.7L making 330-340 rwhp (at most), and currently on 93 pump fuel.

In an effort to simplify things and lighten this pig as much as possible, I want to put a small fuel cell in the front. I have a 1 gallon fuel cell that was used a while back just for firing up engines on a stand that I'm considering using. I would mount it just inside the frame rails but put an NHRA spec tubing around it anyway.

The car is not towed to and from the lanes. It's driven to the lanes, make the pass, and driven back. I highly doubt this engine would use even half a gallon in a single pass, even with the driving back and forth. I just want to make sure of things like head pressure for the pump which will be an external pump, though being gravity fed should help with that. I also wonder about aeration issues with the small cell. I have no issue with refueling after every pass.

Any thoughts? Input? Thanks in advance.

[liqu]

It may suck some air at the end of the run.

[miniv8]

You could try to plumb the return straight to the inlet of the pump with a Y or a T if you are worried it will draw bubbles in the tank. It could be a bitch on initial startup, but once bled of air, it could be a viable option.

[BOOT]

Sry didn't see if it was carb or efi? With only 1 gallon idk if I'd use a return either way. Still I don't know if 1 gallon will work, if it was me I'd feel better with 2

[RDY4WAR]

Sry didn't see if it was carb or efi? With only 1 gallon idk if I'd use a return either way. Still I don't know if 1 gallon will work, if it was me I'd feel better with 2

Sorry, I should've mentioned that. It's EFI, batch fire, speed density, tuned in open loop only. Stock 22 lb/hr injectors that are almost maxed out.

I would feel better with 2 as well. It just sucks all the cells in the 1.5-2 gallon range $350+ because they are Pro Stock cells. The 1 gallon and 3 gallon cells are <$200. Plus, I already have a 1 gallon sitting around.

[rustbucket79]

Had a chat with a customer this past weekend, his mid 8 second car uses about a gallon a pass, 565 with a 300 shot of nitrous.

My junk, 10 flat car, will use on average under a half gallon US for a run. 406 small block.

[RDY4WAR]

Had a chat with a customer this past weekend, his mid 8 second car uses about a gallon a pass, 565 with a 300 shot of nitrous.

My junk, 10 flat car, will use on average under a half gallon US for a run. 406 small block.

My car is a stock long block 350ci LT1 with stock cam, heads, intake, and bottom end. Just bolt-ons (and -offs) with a TH350 (RMVB) and a lot of weight reduction. I'm aiming for 2900 lbs race weight. A lot of emphasis on reducing rolling resistance, friction, and parasitic losses. The car rolls very easy. It's a low 11 car at best. It's mostly just for the fun of seeing just how quick I can go without opening the engine, without pulling the heads or intake off.

I would like to run E85, but there's only 1 pump about an hour away from me. I might try VP C9 if I can find it.

[Bill Chase]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-2-5-Gall ... 632-2357-0

Seen some videos of guys drag racing and drifting 4 cylinder turbo stuff on a budget with that crap. Chinese made. But it is aluminum, and can be welded, imagine having a bladder made for it wouldn't be to expensive. Love it or hate it the price isn't bad. I purchased one for permanent mounting on my test stand and threw an aem 50-1000 pump in it. Less than 250 in it Including cheap regulator. Good for efi up to 58 psi, and can get it down to 15 psi for tbi. I've had it over 18 months, few hours of use a couple different engines and no problems.

[af2]

Had a chat with a customer this past weekend, his mid 8 second car uses about a gallon a pass, 565 with a 300 shot of nitrous.

My junk, 10 flat car, will use on average under a half gallon US for a run. 406 small block.

My car is a stock long block 350ci LT1 with stock cam, heads, intake, and bottom end. Just bolt-ons (and -offs) with a TH350 (RMVB) and a lot of weight reduction. I'm aiming for 2900 lbs race weight. A lot of emphasis on reducing rolling resistance, friction, and parasitic losses. The car rolls very easy. It's a low 11 car at best. It's mostly just for the fun of seeing just how quick I can go without opening the engine, without pulling the heads or intake off.

I would like to run E85, but there's only 1 pump about an hour away from me. I might try VP C9 if I can find it.

3 would be better so when they have you come right back to the line you have some fuel left...

[motormonkey]

At least a 2 gallon if you drive back to lanes, to small and you aerate the shit out of the fuel on the return line.

[RDY4WAR]

At least a 2 gallon if you drive back to lanes, to small and you aerate the shit out of the fuel on the return line.

I think I'm sold on going with a 2-3 gallon. For curiosity sake though, could what MiniV8 mentioned above with feeding the return between the cell and the pump reduce aeration risk?

[motormonkey]

At least a 2 gallon if you drive back to lanes, to small and you aerate the shit out of the fuel on the return line.

I think I'm sold on going with a 2-3 gallon. For curiosity sake though, could what MiniV8 mentioned above with feeding the return between the cell and the pump reduce aeration risk?

I've never plumbed Efi that way so I don't know.

[In-Tech]

It does prevent aeration but also heats the fuel and fuel pump rapidly.

[RDY4WAR]

It does prevent aeration but also heats the fuel and fuel pump rapidly.

That makes sense. Would foam even make a difference in a 1 gallon tank?

[Dave Koehler]

It does prevent aeration but also heats the fuel and fuel pump rapidly.

Things I run into with MFI that pertain to any fuel system.
Note that most of what I write relates to front mounted tanks but can be applied to about any combination.

The heat thing does happen (measured it) with the MFI systems I work on where people try to return fuel to the inlet of the pump.
I have never found a way to measure the return line aeration theory thou I wonder where this air is coming from in essentially a closed system.
However, there always has to be some air/oxygen in the fuel does it not?

What returning to the inlet side of the pump does do with the right combination is cause the pump to cavitate. This is an engine killing situation.
Flow sensors will easily show this.
On high volume, hi pressure systems I work with I have seen it so bad on the flow bench that it will rattle the heck out of a rather heavy machine.
In addition to the flow sensors I can see it and hear it. Kind of spooky.

Why does this pump cavitation happen?
Sometimes it has to do with pump design. Other times it just a combination of things but one thing consistently shows up as a sinner.
That is returning the fuel too close to to the pump and at right angles to the incoming flow.
The returning fuel interrupts the lower pressure incoming fuel. Basically it tries to shut the door.

The solution to those that cannot return to the tank is to have the return at a minimum of 1 foot in front of the pump.
Further away is better.
Further improvement can be made by fabricating/plumbing it to return in at an angle pointing back toward the pump.
With this arrangement you can actually pack the inlet of the pump via the garden hose siphon effect.
There is probably a fancier word for it but the garden hose thing seems to be always understood.

On drag cars the tank is too often overlooked. IMO plastic tanks are only useful on gravity feed lawn mowers.
The foam thing came around because they can't mold in a proper baffle system and sell it cheap.
Foam is a double edge sword. True, it cuts down on slosh but at the risk of "stuff" finding it's way to jets and nozzles.
So, put a too fine filter in line you say. Cool, now the flow is diminished.
I never bothered to prove out how much the foam affects the flow path to the pump but I suspect it does.
This is too much chasing around of issues all due to an inefficient chunk of blow molded plastic.

A properly made tank will have the return in the top of the tank pointing across the top of the fuel level. NOT down into the fuel.
It's not so much for avoid aeration but NOT interrupting the flow path to the pump.
Baffles can be built in to help with the aeration and slosh concerns.

Return fuel to the bottom of the fuel tank?
This varies/changes your return pressure setting via back pressure from the fuel volume and g forces
Not a especially practical idea.
I do use this concept on my 40 gallon tank flow bench.
I have a chiller attached to my bench to keep the alky temp as stable as possible.
I have electric pump pulling the alky from the tank through the chiller and a filter and back to the bottom of the tank.
I do the bottom return thing to keep things stirred up and remove/filter out any particles that may find their way in there.
Let's just say that the eddy currents created are interesting

While I deal with 100 psi and way up systems I suspect these issues also show up on low pressure carb systems.
In a galaxy far away when I had nothing available but holley blue pumps and carbs and I used a return system even then.
In hindsight I suspect a couple of issues could be contributed to the same things I speak of here.
I remember defeating the internal safety? bypass improved and settled down the flow by moving the pressure control to the return.

One other goofy thing using the bigger is better concept that actually works is the pump Inlet line size.
For instance on a pump with a -8 inlet change the fitting to accept a -10, -12 or even larger hose.
It kind of fools the pump into thinking it is inside the tank. Yeah, yeah I know. Just try it.

Aeration reality.
A long while back when TF folks started working with dry sump systems they just had a basic oil tank next to the fuel tank.
I asked a famous tuner why they didn't use the tall round thingies with all those baffles you normally see associated with dry sumps?
I realized they had space considerations but his answer was telling.
"How much aeration will we remove in 4-5 seconds?"
While I haven't found a way to prove it out one way or the other it is logical.
While I am talking about oil the same thing may apply to fuel.
I suspect taking that idea out to a 10 second run results in the same answer.
Inlet line size, return line position and baffles solve a lot of goofy mysteries.

Ok, I got carried away.