Visible contaminants in oil

[ArizonaGuy]

Howdy fellas. Long time lurker, first time poster.
Lots of knowledge around here

Anyway, here’s my concern (I’ll try to keep it short):
1500 miles after freshening on a 8.2” deck SBF stroker. Good parts throughout.
Valvoline VR1 20w50, Wix filters.
After break-in oil and filter changes, I did an oil analysis at 500 miles; 139ppm lead, 238ppm copper. Not good.
Dropped the pan, replaced main and rod bearings. Installed high volume oil pump.

Long story short, I’ve done two more follow-up analysis. Lead and copper are in the single digits, but I can see what *looks like* particulate contaminants in the oil samples. I cut open all used filters, nothing in there. Oil analysis looks good.
But I really do not like seeing crap floating around in my oil.

Any ideas?

[norm]

Do you run a bronze distributor gear?

[ArizonaGuy]

Do you run a bronze distributor gear?

Nope, iron.
Mechanical flat tappet.

Each time I empty the crankcase, I remove the distributor and prime before firing it back up.
I’ve looked over the iron distributor gear with a jewelers loupe, zero wear.
So it isn’t that.

[RDY4WAR]

What oil did you use for the break-in?

Pb and Cu are both are typically from the bearings but can also come from oil coolers. Did you prime the system well before the first startup? It sounds to me like the bearings were in boundary lubrication for a while at the beginning without sufficient oil film.

[ArizonaGuy]

What oil did you use for the break-in?

Pb and Cu are both are typically from the bearings but can also come from oil coolers. Did you prime the system well before the first startup? It sounds to me like the bearings were in boundary lubrication for a while at the beginning without sufficient oil film.

Camshaft was already run in, so that wasn’t necessary for the initial startup.
I used VR1 with Comp Cams break-in additive for the first two cycles. First change was not long after initial startup, and then again after 50 miles.
I did indeed prime the oiling system prior to first start-up, and each time I change oil and filters. It only takes a few minutes to yank the distributor, prime, re-stab the distributor and time it. I’ve indexed everything so it’s too easy not to do.
Oh, and no oil cooler.

After a 200 miles I did switch from VR1 to Redline 40wt racing oil. I ran it for another 400 miles, and then I had the alarming oil analysis. I’ll save the Redline for the track; I certainly won’t be running it for an extended interval on the street.

[RDY4WAR]

What oil did you use for the break-in?

Pb and Cu are both are typically from the bearings but can also come from oil coolers. Did you prime the system well before the first startup? It sounds to me like the bearings were in boundary lubrication for a while at the beginning without sufficient oil film.

Camshaft was already run in, so that wasn’t necessary for the initial startup.
I used VR1 with Comp Cams break-in additive for the first two cycles. First change was not long after initial startup, and then again after 50 miles.
I did indeed prime the oiling system prior to first start-up, and each time I change oil and filters. It only takes a few minutes to yank the distributor, prime, re-stab the distributor and time it. I’ve indexed everything so it’s too easy not to do.
Oh, and no oil cooler.

After a 200 miles I did switch from VR1 to Redline 40wt racing oil. I ran it for another 400 miles, and then I had the alarming oil analysis. I’ll save the Redline for the track; I certainly won’t be running it for an extended interval on the street.

That may explain it. Redline contains a lot of ester, up to 40%, which has strong polar and solvent properties. If any Cu and Pb particles were remaining in the block, whether it be from earlier oils or leftover from machining, that oil would be more likely to kick it up into suspension.

[BILL-C]

Give more details on engine. Some combinations eat themselves quicker than others.

[dannobee]

Did you literally drop the pan and change the bearings? Or did you disassemble and clean everything? If the former, there's a good chance that it's just leftover debris from before. If the latter, how well did you clean ALL of the old oil from the block and oil pan? If you're confident in your cleaning, I'd just keep an eye on it and trust the oil analysis. Is the debris magnetic? If so, it's likely "normal" ring wear.

[BillK]

Valvoline VR1 20w50

Why such "heavy" oil ? What are the clearances ?

Dropped the pan, replaced main and rod bearings.
Installed high volume oil pump.

What did the bearings look like ? Why did you go to the HV pump ?

I’ve done two more follow-up analysis. Lead and copper are in the single digits, but I can see what *looks like* particulate contaminants in the oil samples.

What do the oil analysis reports say about particular matter ? Anything ?

But I really do not like seeing crap floating around in my oil.

What exactly does it look like ? Metallic ? If you pour some of it through a white paper towel can you see if it might be something like RTV or valve spring shim material etc ? Could it possibly just be the nature of the oil you are using ?

Just thinking out loud

[ArizonaGuy]

Valvoline VR1 20w50

Why such "heavy" oil ? What are the clearances ?

Dropped the pan, replaced main and rod bearings.
Installed high volume oil pump.

What did the bearings look like ? Why did you go to the HV pump ?

I’ve done two more follow-up analysis. Lead and copper are in the single digits, but I can see what *looks like* particulate contaminants in the oil samples.

What do the oil analysis reports say about particular matter ? Anything ?

But I really do not like seeing crap floating around in my oil.

What exactly does it look like ? Metallic ? If you pour some of it through a white paper towel can you see if it might be something like RTV or valve spring shim material etc ? Could it possibly just be the nature of the oil you are using ?

Just thinking out loud

1) Mains are .003 (looser than ideal), rods are .002
2) Main bearings were scuffed, rod bearings weren’t. Since I was in there, I just replaced them all.
3) Machinist recommended a HV oil pump. Hot oil psi was lower than we’d like.
4) Iron 6ppm, aluminum 5ppm, lead and copper both 3ppm, all other metals <1ppm. Silicone 28ppm
5) I’ll pour some through a coffee filter and see what I come up with.

Thanks y’all for your input

[ArizonaGuy]

Did you literally drop the pan and change the bearings? Or did you disassemble and clean everything? If the former, there's a good chance that it's just leftover debris from before. If the latter, how well did you clean ALL of the old oil from the block and oil pan? If you're confident in your cleaning, I'd just keep an eye on it and trust the oil analysis. Is the debris magnetic? If so, it's likely "normal" ring wear.

Not a complete tear down, I just dropped the oil pan and changed bearings and oil pump.
I wanted to try resolving this without pulling the motor.
‘Contaminants’ are not magnetic (thankfully), no evidence of heat/bluing, etc. The motor never did lay over (again, thankfully).
What you’re saying makes sense, and I had already consisted that. Good to hear that you’re thinking the same thing.

Thanks again fellas

[RDY4WAR]

1) Mains are .003 (looser than ideal), rods are .002
2) Main bearings were scuffed, rod bearings weren’t. Since I was in there, I just replaced them all.
3) Machinist recommended a HV oil pump. Hot oil psi was lower than we’d like.
4) Iron 6ppm, aluminum 5ppm, lead and copper both 3ppm, all other metals <1ppm. Silicone 28ppm
5) I’ll pour some through a coffee filter and see what I come up with.

Thanks y’all for your input

The silicon content of VR1 will be 8-12 ppm in a virgin sample. If it's showing up 28 ppm in used sample, that means 2 things: 1) you've got a good bit of dirt (silica) getting into the crankcase, and 2) the oil filter isn't doing a good job of filtering it out. There's a saying in the oil community that "the best oil filter is a good air filter." What kind of PCV / breather system are you using, and if PCV, what air filter? The Wix filters, while durable, are rather poor in filtration. The Wix XP is especially bad in that regard. It's little more than a rock catcher.

If the mains are right on .003" (not like .0035" or higher), then a 40 grade oil is ideal to that clearance. If the rods are <.0027", then they are in 30 grade territory. While unlikely, it is possible for excessive oil viscosity to cause overheating of the bearing material (from high hydrodynamic friction) resulting in spalling. It's unlikely given your use of it so far, but still something to think about. I'd find a 10W-40 or 5W-40.

How low was your oil pressure at hot idle? You'd be surprised how little oil pressure you actually need. My car has just 7-8 psi at hot idle and no issues. Flow is more important than pressure. The HV pump is likely just robbing power with no benefit.

[ArizonaGuy]

1) Mains are .003 (looser than ideal), rods are .002
2) Main bearings were scuffed, rod bearings weren’t. Since I was in there, I just replaced them all.
3) Machinist recommended a HV oil pump. Hot oil psi was lower than we’d like.
4) Iron 6ppm, aluminum 5ppm, lead and copper both 3ppm, all other metals <1ppm. Silicone 28ppm
5) I’ll pour some through a coffee filter and see what I come up with.

Thanks y’all for your input

The silicon content of VR1 will be 8-12 ppm in a virgin sample. If it's showing up 28 ppm in used sample, that means 2 things: 1) you've got a good bit of dirt (silica) getting into the crankcase, and 2) the oil filter isn't doing a good job of filtering it out. There's a saying in the oil community that "the best oil filter is a good air filter." What kind of PCV / breather system are you using, and if PCV, what air filter? The Wix filters, while durable, are rather poor in filtration. The Wix XP is especially bad in that regard. It's little more than a rock catcher.

If the mains are right on .003" (not like .0035" or higher), then a 40 grade oil is ideal to that clearance. If the rods are <.0027", then they are in 30 grade territory. While unlikely, it is possible for excessive oil viscosity to cause overheating of the bearing material (from high hydrodynamic friction) resulting in spalling. It's unlikely given your use of it so far, but still something to think about. I'd find a 10W-40 or 5W-40.

How low was your oil pressure at hot idle? You'd be surprised how little oil pressure you actually need. My car has just 7-8 psi at hot idle and no issues. Flow is more important than pressure. The HV pump is likely just robbing power with no benefit.

I actually just did replace the air filter. Haven’t run it yet. 13” Motorcraft (it’s the only one that fits, hood clearance is TIGHT).
It’s chipped at 7200rpm, so I don’t zing this motor to the moon. It does see 7k rpm regularly.
Hot oil pressure was 18psi @ 950rpm idle, 38psi mid-range, 60psi at full song.
Now it’s 30psi at idle, 55psi mid, 75psi wrung out. Mechanical gauges.
I’ll lighten up on the viscosity and pull another sample in a few hundred miles.

Thanks again

[rebelyell]

OE GM changed from M55 to M155; to help improve low to mid-rpm performance and help stabilize low rpm pressure. See M55 versus M155 NO diff in volume or pressure ratings (both stdV-stdP) but M155 pickup tube (3/4") is larger than M55 (5/8"); larger tube helps pump "suck." Both GM & Melling engineered this; It seems to help so I can't argue with them. YMMV

[RDY4WAR]

I actually just did replace the air filter. Haven’t run it yet. 13” Motorcraft (it’s the only one that fits, hood clearance is TIGHT).
It’s chipped at 7200rpm, so I don’t zing this motor to the moon. It does see 7k rpm regularly.
Hot oil pressure was 18psi @ 950rpm idle, 38psi mid-range, 60psi at full song.
Now it’s 30psi at idle, 55psi mid, 75psi wrung out. Mechanical gauges.
I’ll lighten up on the viscosity and pull another sample in a few hundred miles.

Thanks again

Your pressure with stock pump is what I tend to aim for, 15-20 psi at hot idle increasing 10 psi per 1k rpm to ~65 psi max. I don't like to exceed 65 psi as aeration starts becoming more of a concern and there's no real benefit. You're fine at 75 psi for short bursts. It's more of an issue with sustained high pressure and high rpm.

What's the other details of this engine? NA, boost, nitrous? Hydraulic or solid cam? What fuel?