If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

Crazy Dirt
New Member
New Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:54 pm
Location: BC

If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by Crazy Dirt »

Hi guys,

My background is that of a tech, not a machinist. I’m familiar with working with cylinder surface finishes, just haven’t been the one actually doing the honing (other than minor surface conditioning). I own bore gauges, a profilometer, mics, etc. I’m working with a rigid hone made by Lisle, model 15000, but it is similar to the Sunnen AN and various other brands. This is my first project with a rigid hone, it is on my own engine for a project truck of mine, which is why I’m messing around with doing my own honing and not sending it out. Mainly because I want to learn how to do it.

I have a spare block identical to my good block to practice on. This hone was supposedly new straight from rock auto. When I got it the threads on the yoke for the drill extension were buggered up. The hone has a wobble to it and I’m not sure if it’s a reflection of an out of round bore (the cylinder the video was shot with is 0.0013” (13 tenths) out of round. Or, if this hone has a problem. I’m using an 80 grit stone set to start off with. So far, I’ve honed 20 thou worth of material with this stone set in the first couple of cylinders but have been fighting bore geometry the whole time. The stones should at least be well broken in. I’m wondering, is this normal behavior for an out of round bore or did someone use this hone before me, catch a web or something and bugger it up and then returned it to rock auto from which I purchased it?

Here is a link to a short video of the hone running at slow speed to show the wobble.
https://vimeo.com/587531353
gridslammer
New Member
New Member
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:31 am
Location:

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by gridslammer »

Check to see if your stones are feeding out evenly and you have to get the stones pretty tight up against the bore if your starting out in a bore that is bad it will take a few times of tighting before you actually start cutting on the bore.
rustbucket79
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2151
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:23 pm
Location:

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by rustbucket79 »

An out of round bore is going to chatter the hone, but at that point I would look very closely for a split wall. Out of round just isn’t common.

That hone is garbage, and will produce a garbage finished product. (The one you own, not necessarily that brand)
rebelrouser
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1938
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:25 pm
Location:

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by rebelrouser »

I have a snap-on rigid hone, it looks just like the Lisle you mention. First, I mainly use a rigid hone just to see how worn the cylinder is, a couple strokes and you can see any taper or low spots. If it has a ridge at the top you can catch a finger nail on, it needs to be bored. If it has low spots or taper it needs to be bored. No need to waste time honing.
If the cylinder has no wear then I use a flex hone to finish, and then use a Plateau Soft Hone Brush type hone, for a few strokes. Clean with light oil until you get no honing debris on the rag, and assemble.
A rigid hone is harder to use, and to keep it true you need to work the stones, my hone came with a board with emory paper, a few strokes of the board keeps it honing straight, and helps stop chatter. I seldom use mine anymore.
hoodeng
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:53 pm
Location: South Australia

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by hoodeng »

Honing is a finishing exercise. Boring a cylinder first will insure true to clock up and deck, then, finishing the last .005" to .003" with a vertical hone will insure the correct geometry you need.
Boring is a rigid process, honing is not, any alignment error at the start of a hone job will be there at the end, the better the finished bore is the better the hone accuracy will be, a hone will only follow a preexisting bore, errors can be introduced with a hone not used as intended. A lot of dwell with a hone can introduce diametric variance in the bore at the top of the stones.

Looking at the video, the speed, wobble and rigidity will give the finish you are trying to avoid.

If you still want to do as much of the job as you can and there is an engine reconditioner near you that will be happy to let you watch how they perform a bore job, grab the opportunity, and then replicate what they have done.
PackardV8
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7619
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:03 pm
Location: Spokane, WA

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by PackardV8 »

I've got a Sunnen head which doesn't get much use anymore. Tell me what stones and bore diameters you do most often and I'll make you a deal.

jack vines
Jack Vines
Studebaker-Packard V8 Limited
Obsolete Engineering
Crazy Dirt
New Member
New Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:54 pm
Location: BC

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by Crazy Dirt »

Ok, thanks for the confirmation that there is something off with this particular unit. I’ll get in touch with rock auto and see what they can do. I probably should have been more concerned when I had to repair the threads on it right out of the box, before I could use it.

Some background info: It’s a 3V Ford mod motor, it seems like these blocks go out of spec if you so much as look at them wrong. :shock: I should mention that while the practice block has some cylinders out of round by as much as 0.0021”, the actual block I’m building has a max out of round of 0.0005”. It’s taper is a little out of spec and I’m not one for ignoring a problem. I’ve only found one shop in our area that is both capable of, and will do machine work per customer spec, without wanting to build the entire engine. This shop charges $600 for a bore and TP hone. Most other shops either won’t touch a mod motor or don’t have the ability (or perhaps don’t care enough) to work within the tight specs required.

Jack, I may take you up in that. I’ll see what Rock Auto wants to do whether it be a return or sending a replacement out or what, and will go from there.
BillK
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1745
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:30 pm
Location: Beautiful Southern Maryland
Contact:

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by BillK »

Crazy Dirt wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 1:58 am the actual block I’m building has a max out of round of 0.0005”. It’s taper is a little out of spec
If that is truly the case then it is probably better than most of those blocks are when new. The last thing I would do is put a rigid hone in it. Especially a hand held one with no honing oil.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

www.enginerepairshop.com
rebelrouser
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1938
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:25 pm
Location:

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by rebelrouser »

Crazy Dirt wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:16 pm Hi guys,

My background is that of a tech, not a machinist. I’m familiar with working with cylinder surface finishes, just haven’t been the one actually doing the honing (other than minor surface conditioning). I own bore gauges, a profilometer, mics, etc. I’m working with a rigid hone made by Lisle, model 15000, but it is similar to the Sunnen AN and various other brands. This is my first project with a rigid hone, it is on my own engine for a project truck of mine, which is why I’m messing around with doing my own honing and not sending it out. Mainly because I want to learn how to do it.

I have a spare block identical to my good block to practice on. This hone was supposedly new straight from rock auto. When I got it the threads on the yoke for the drill extension were buggered up. The hone has a wobble to it and I’m not sure if it’s a reflection of an out of round bore (the cylinder the video was shot with is 0.0013” (13 tenths) out of round. Or, if this hone has a problem. I’m using an 80 grit stone set to start off with. So far, I’ve honed 20 thou worth of material with this stone set in the first couple of cylinders but have been fighting bore geometry the whole time. The stones should at least be well broken in. I’m wondering, is this normal behavior for an out of round bore or did someone use this hone before me, catch a web or something and bugger it up and then returned it to rock auto from which I purchased it?

Here is a link to a short video of the hone running at slow speed to show the wobble.
https://vimeo.com/587531353
Sorry did not look at your video, when I was teaching how to use a hone, students would pull out the rigid hone with it still spinning, and it would fly all over the shop, when you put it back together, many times it would wobble as in your video. Sounds like you got a return hone that somebody screwed up not knowing how to use it.
BCjohnny
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1772
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 6:07 pm
Location: Black Country, England

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by BCjohnny »

Hand honing a block oversize, and keeping reasonable tolerance, would task even the most diligent of beginners

If the hone you've been supplied with actually is a 'return', any damage present is likely from the previous purchaser throwing it across the workshop in frustration
Crazy Dirt
New Member
New Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:54 pm
Location: BC

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by Crazy Dirt »

rebelrouser wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 8:02 am Sorry did not look at your video, when I was teaching how to use a hone, students would pull out the rigid hone with it still spinning, and it would fly all over the shop, when you put it back together, many times it would wobble as in your video. Sounds like you got a return hone that somebody screwed up not knowing how to use it.
I think that’s likely what happened here. The hone is on its way back to rock auto, they’re supposed to be sending a replacement out. This time I’ll watch to make sure it’s not previously used. I took some rudimentary measurements and it looks like the bottom of the hone was running within 1 tenth, while the top of the hone body (yoke end) out more than 25 tenths.
Crazy Dirt
New Member
New Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:54 pm
Location: BC

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by Crazy Dirt »

It’s probably worth mentioning that I had tried switching out stones and even tried one set of stones relative to the hone body with a diamond platen just to be sure it wasn’t a stone problem.
Crazy Dirt
New Member
New Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:54 pm
Location: BC

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by Crazy Dirt »

Crazy Dirt wrote: Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:13 pm It’s probably worth mentioning that I had tried switching out stones and even tried one set of stones relative to the hone body with a diamond platen just to be sure it wasn’t a stone problem.
That was supposed to say that I TRUED a set of stones on a platen just to be sure it wasn’t a stone problem. Mondays :roll:
User avatar
modok
Guru
Guru
Posts: 3321
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 1:50 am
Location:

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by modok »

The guide shoes are not guiding. WHy? you tell me.

the guide shoes look to be made of felt? A rigid hone needs to have at least one rigid shoe and felt is not a rigid material so hows that supposed to work?
Honing is a random process, and by the same magic the stones and shoes re supposed to wear all equally and evenly, but sometimes they do not and you have to help them along. IF a stone, or one end of a stone is not wearing fast enough you can NARROW it and that will help it to begin wearing straight again. But if that's NOT ENOUGH to steer things the right direction then it's fundamentally not working and you may need to start over.

Far better availability of stones for sunnen AN. You can get them on e-bay, some of the better and more obscure stone and shoe sets actually go for cheap often because people do not know what they are. You can download the sunnen catalog for free and learn and if you have any questions go ahead and ask.
I am sure you can buy one for less than you spent on your toy hone.
I'm not intending to sell it..... but if you can't find one let me know, and you can hold me to that offer.
hoodeng
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 1092
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 6:53 pm
Location: South Australia

Re: If you’re familiar with portable rigid hones (ie. Sunnen AN or Lisle15000) I could use some help please.

Post by hoodeng »

I have not seen felt wipers supplied by any reputable bore finishing tooling providers.
Sunnen for their AN range supply two types of wipers, one is the wave type that most would be familiar with the other was a thicker section wiper that was intended for harder material bores. I used to use these in the past but found the cutting pressure had to be increased to wear the wiper at the same rate as the stones. Trouble with that was breathing of the liner at the unsupported bottom section of the cylinder.

Cheers.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Post Reply