Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

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Xnke
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Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by Xnke »

Scored some Del West Ti intake valves, locks, and retainers for the LS-V4 project. They're Ford NASCAR take offs, 296 miles on them. Only 7 valves out of the 8, but I only need 4 anyway.

I'll need to shorten the stems 0.411", but we'll see when they get here how much really needs to come off. The valve heads are 2.150", and I had planned on using a 2.00" valve.

They'll be going in a modified 862 5.3L LS truck engine heads, so the valve size needs to get bigger right out of the gate just to get the throat sized correctly.

I have Enginetech replacement "high chrome" valve seats and stock replacement valve guides, but neither have been installed yet. Both guides and seats will have to be replaced anyway as there is CONSIDERABLE welding on the heads.

Will the Enginetech "high chrome" valve seats work with the Del-West Ti valves after having the valve heads re-coated? I know that after turning the heads down the cut areas need to be re-coated with CrN, which is available locally as well as by sending them in to Calico Coatings.

In the same vein, how about the intake valve guide? Will the cast iron guide work with the moly-coated Ti Valve, or do I need to move to a CuNiSiAl Bronze guides?
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by BradH »

If the OP doesn't mind, I'd like to piggyback a related question: If you use ti valves that have Chromium Nitride (CrN) coating, does that allow for using valve seat materials (e.g. ductile iron) with which an uncoated ti valve has long-term wear issues? Thx

EDIT: What got me thinking about this was an article I read about GM LS7 heads and their usage of ti intake valves: https://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/sp ... ine12.html
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by fabr »

Have you verified they will recoat used parts?
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by Xnke »

fabr wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 10:33 am Have you verified they will recoat used parts?
Yes, they will after they have been machined. They will not remove the coating, you must do that yourself and verify that the parts will be within tolerance.

I have *heard* that ductile iron seats are OK for Ti intake valves, provided they are coated correctly. I have also heard that Ti exhaust valves *must* use a copper or copper-infiltrated seat to get the heat out, which makes sense.

The GM LS7 uses a copper-infiltrated powder metal seat, which I am told is not available to purchase. I'm sure there is an equal out there somewhere, but I don't know where to find it.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by fabr »

Out of curiosity was it calico or your local coater that will do it?

I have of late been in contact with DelWest and Victory as to seat material. I don't want to mis quote either so I'll bow out on commenting. Victory was easiest to contact and very willing to talk.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by n2omike »

NOT an expert in the field of titanium... That being said, I have noticed a lot of different seats being used. I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night, and watched a video of Matt at MBE describing various seats that people use with Ti. Of course he said most are total crap, and the only ones that work correctly cost close to $50 each... and are what he uses. You can research this further or look up his video on the subject... and make your decision after taking in some more information. I'm sure it is also application specific. Good Luck!
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by englertracing »

Durabond killer Bee is a sintered iron seat with copper
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by Racer71 »

If memory serves me correctly and it’s been several years but I think my Yates cup heads had beryllium in the seats but I could be wrong. They had del seat titanium’s in them as well.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by mt-engines »

I 2nd the Killer Bee seats. They are a great replacement and hold up very well to titanium.

I like Moldstar 90 over beryllium.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by PackardV8 »

I've got a set of high-dollar NASCAR intake and exhaust seats on the shelf I'll never use. PM me if interested.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by KnightEngines »

CHE do bronze seats for Ti valves, no beryllium so you won't get cancer cutting them.
Good seats.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by Xnke »

I am not sold on the need for bronze seats just yet, at least for the intake valve. Even GM is running coated Ti intakes on powder metal seats, I just need to get Durabond to actually pick up a phone. (Or Del-West, or Victory...No one answers a phone anymore!) Hopefully I'll be able to put a few thousand street miles on the engine between valve jobs. If I have to pull the heads every 40K and do a valve job, well, that's life in the world of custom toys. Doing a valve job every three weekends, though, would get annoying.

Once the valves are in hand and inspected, I'll know more. I was more interested in the locks and retainers than the valves, initially.

The entire goal isn't eleventy RPMs, it's lower valvespring pressure to control the valve. Less spring pressure = less frictional loss. And since the valves, retainers, and locks were cheaper than the buying new semi-fancy stainless steel valves, (Si Valve, which I like OK) I'm not too worried if I need to send these valves out for re-coating after machining them to fit.

And if I can rev the tits off of it later and still maintain good valve control, that'll be a bonus. :D :D

Also Tony, did you ever get the chance to really dial in that set of 706 heads you did a while back? These 862's are the same design, just sand-cast instead of semi-permanent mold castings like the 706. I have a LOT of photos you put up of those heads and am contemplating doing them myself again, instead of sending out for a CNC job. The Katech CNC job for 500$ is very tempting, if they're willing to do these.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by KnightEngines »

Yeah, they're making 34x rwkw on a stock 5.7 short, limited by the ITB size.
Running on pump 98.
Around 580hp at the motor, give or take.

Fit bronze seats & don't worry about recoating valves, they'll last fine like that.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by swampbuggy »

Like all metals there are several molecular make ups of Bronze, Mr. Knight what would be the letters / numbers identification for the Bronze stock used for valve seats ? I would like to learn something here. Thanks Mark H.
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Re: Selecting Valve Seat material for Ti Valves

Post by KnightEngines »

I have no idea, I just call CHE & ask for seats for uncoated Ti valves!
A metallurgist can figure out the details lol.
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