Dimpling a LS port

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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by GARY C »

hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:04 am
GARY C wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:03 am
hoffman900 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:42 pm Gary it has. In any class where one is free to choose, they went to injection decades ago.

You’re doing this thing where you ask the same question over and over again in different ways.

I’ve outlined at least four different reasons why EFI can be better, if you can’t see that, despite bringing it up several times over the years, then I don’t think anyone is going to convince you.
Sorry I guess I didn't see you present where EFI is better over and over again, I will go back and look for the DATA you posted to prove your point.

Forgive me for my stance but in my 40 years in the performance world of open class racing we all were free to choose but EFI never proved a worth wile choice until the boosted scene.
It's stuff like this that has chased away many top professionals from here. I've chatted with a few about it outside this forum. I was hoping this site turned a page... guess not.

What open class racing is this? The local 1/8 mile weeknight test n' tune scene?
If I may ask you one question, Have you ever built, dynoed or raced anything your self? I am just asking because I don't recall you posting anything accept for sim programs and theoretical papers from Honda and others but I don't recall you ever posting any actual documented build, dyno or track data of your own.
Please correct/link me if I am wrong.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by GARY C »

1972ho wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:11 pm https://youtu.be/LqFpBzBLvWY By Eric
He should have tested air speed before and after, if dimples increase boundary layer then air speed would increase and flow would decrease as the port would act smaller... In theory.

Here is is dimpled wet flow just posted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4zyU-cyhCQ
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:25 am I’d also like to see data showing a fuel injection system available for mere mortals that cools the inlet charge better than a well sorted carb.
Obviously fuel injection has other advantages but that’s a big one to overcome purely looking at from a hp perspective ( throw in $$$ and hard for some to justify ) and of course there is more to a “tuneup” that wot peak power.
I’m not a carb guy and will be shortly upgrading my efi system to something more modern
For what it's worth, Here is a test of EFI vs Carb with A/F Readings and the carb is credited for it's cooling effect as few systems available to the public place the injector above a single runner port like F1.
"SBE 6.0L LS Test. CARBS VS PORT EFI. Who makes more power? The OG Carb or a modern, multi-port EFI? We compared them both on the same Holley single-plane(LS) intake manifold. We even tuned the cylinders individually with the Holley HP ECU. Is that an unfair advantage, or can the carb hold its own?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRaY3oAKmg

Also EMC did an in depth test on intake heat but you have to have a membership to see the complete test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd25X8xLFpA
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by jcisworthy »

In the video, he tests a dimpled and an as cast port. Why wouldn't a finished non dimpled port be tested? I would think that would be a better test.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by econo racer »

Till today people still say there going to port and polish there heads, I tell them don't polish them. But there friend says you will make more power. Bolt them on . no faster. Some have to find out for there self. :shock:
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by WeingartnerRacing »

jcisworthy wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 2:21 am In the video, he tests a dimpled and an as cast port. Why wouldn't a finished non dimpled port be tested? I would think that would be a better test.
It will be I haven’t gotten there yet.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by dannobee »

Eric, since it seemed to make an improvement on the first test but not on the full dimpled port, maybe try different spots on the next port, a little at a time until you can see where exactly the port needed the dimples. Of course flow may or may not mean more power on the dyno or strip, but there's usually some correlation.
Also, did you check the port with flow balls and strings before and after dimpling?
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by mt-engines »

GARY C wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:14 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:45 pm
BOOT wrote: Tue Sep 28, 2021 7:11 pm

That's more of a intake design bad turn fuel drop out problem. Some intakes have a pattern on the plenum floor to offset it.
I don't think it is. I thought the Pro Stock guys documented faster 60' times with the switch to EFI (and a poorly spec'ed one at that) due to this alone
Does anyone have ET and MPH before and after?

I think NASCAR and Pro Stock screwed up by not allowing a more open EFI selection and allowing Carbs for those who choose that path, I think it would have forced both industries to continue R&D on their product.

This was the only discussion I could find... viewtopic.php?t=57623&start=60

60. 330. 660. 1k. 1320
2015 .987 2.746 4.210 5.474 6.538
2016 .987 2.766 4.250 5.529 6.606

Lost a full .1 and quite a few MPH.. but its apples to cheetos comparisons.. different aero, different intake manifold, too many changes at 1 time to have an accurate comparison.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:25 am I’d also like to see data showing a fuel injection system available for mere mortals that cools the inlet charge better than a well sorted carb.
Obviously fuel injection has other advantages but that’s a big one to overcome purely looking at from a hp perspective ( throw in $$$ and hard for some to justify ) and of course there is more to a “tuneup” that wot peak power.
I’m not a carb guy and will be shortly upgrading my efi system to something more modern
You could start by putting the injectors at the same distance from the valve as a carburetor booster.

I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment. Want to make more power? Move the injectors further away from the valve. People have understood this for 50+ years.

Gary, I have, and I'm not going to spell out what I have done for you. The sims make for nice presenting, but most of my real data isn't my own and not for public, because we're racing.

Engine Masters tv is just magazine fodder. Remember when they dented the header, found no change, and said it should be no problem? Sorry, that's not science and they are missing some HUGE points from that test (like the header was way too big and was not the bottleneck in that combo).

Again, in the Richard Holdner video.
I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment.
Why do myself and others have to keep repeating this?

Most of what you guys see out there is the gym equivalent to bro science... Maybe that's a little insulting, but just calling it like it is.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by WeingartnerRacing »

For the record I’m going to test many things on this head many of which come from commenters. I will revisit the dimpling and wet flow with spray and velocities. I don’t know that it will answer any or all of your questions but it will give you info. You can do what you want with it.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:02 am
digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:25 am I’d also like to see data showing a fuel injection system available for mere mortals that cools the inlet charge better than a well sorted carb.
Obviously fuel injection has other advantages but that’s a big one to overcome purely looking at from a hp perspective ( throw in $$$ and hard for some to justify ) and of course there is more to a “tuneup” that wot peak power.
I’m not a carb guy and will be shortly upgrading my efi system to something more modern
You could start by putting the injectors at the same distance from the valve as a carburetor booster.

I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment. Want to make more power? Move the injectors further away from the valve. People have understood this for 50+ years.

Gary, I have, and I'm not going to spell out what I have done for you. The sims make for nice presenting, but most of my real data isn't my own and not for public, because we're racing.

Engine Masters tv is just magazine fodder. Remember when they dented the header, found no change, and said it should be no problem? Sorry, that's not science and they are missing some HUGE points from that test (like the header was way too big and was not the bottleneck in that combo).

Again, in the Richard Holdner video.
I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment.
Why do myself and others have to keep repeating this?

Most of what you guys see out there is the gym equivalent to bro science... Maybe that's a little insulting, but just calling it like it is.
When I was running MFI on alcohol we started out with the nozzles at the valve cover rail. I no longer remember what made me start moving them towards the plenum, but something made me start to think about nozzle position. Thinking about it now, I was working with a customers BBC with stack injection and...wow that was a long time ago...I think they were Crower injectors and they had a high butterfly placement and the nozzles were above the butterflies. That engine was much easier to get the fuel curve in shape, had a much lower BSFC number and was more sensitive to tuning than the stack injectors I was working with that had the nozzles at the valve cover rail.

At that time I was running a tunnel ram with 2 Flying Toilets. I started by moving the nozzles up 2 inches. Everyone said it would lose power. It made more power. At the end I had the nozzles4 inches up and I was thinking about putting them in the plenum but I got fed up with racing and quit and sold it all.

The point is higher nozzle placement made more power. I still can’t convince guys running MFI to move the nozzles up. There is no reason to place them that low.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by hoffman900 »

ClassAct wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:27 am
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:02 am
digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:25 am I’d also like to see data showing a fuel injection system available for mere mortals that cools the inlet charge better than a well sorted carb.
Obviously fuel injection has other advantages but that’s a big one to overcome purely looking at from a hp perspective ( throw in $$$ and hard for some to justify ) and of course there is more to a “tuneup” that wot peak power.
I’m not a carb guy and will be shortly upgrading my efi system to something more modern
You could start by putting the injectors at the same distance from the valve as a carburetor booster.

I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment. Want to make more power? Move the injectors further away from the valve. People have understood this for 50+ years.

Gary, I have, and I'm not going to spell out what I have done for you. The sims make for nice presenting, but most of my real data isn't my own and not for public, because we're racing.

Engine Masters tv is just magazine fodder. Remember when they dented the header, found no change, and said it should be no problem? Sorry, that's not science and they are missing some HUGE points from that test (like the header was way too big and was not the bottleneck in that combo).

Again, in the Richard Holdner video.
I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment.
Why do myself and others have to keep repeating this?

Most of what you guys see out there is the gym equivalent to bro science... Maybe that's a little insulting, but just calling it like it is.
When I was running MFI on alcohol we started out with the nozzles at the valve cover rail. I no longer remember what made me start moving them towards the plenum, but something made me start to think about nozzle position. Thinking about it now, I was working with a customers BBC with stack injection and...wow that was a long time ago...I think they were Crower injectors and they had a high butterfly placement and the nozzles were above the butterflies. That engine was much easier to get the fuel curve in shape, had a much lower BSFC number and was more sensitive to tuning than the stack injectors I was working with that had the nozzles at the valve cover rail.

At that time I was running a tunnel ram with 2 Flying Toilets. I started by moving the nozzles up 2 inches. Everyone said it would lose power. It made more power. At the end I had the nozzles4 inches up and I was thinking about putting them in the plenum but I got fed up with racing and quit and sold it all.

The point is higher nozzle placement made more power. I still can’t convince guys running MFI to move the nozzles up. There is no reason to place them that low.
Exactly. This is the reason shower injectors exist and have existed. The dual row is about having the drivability of a Toyota Camry but the top end of a race engine. From a pure power perspective, you don't need two, just one set in the right place.

Kaase played around with this with his Ford Mod motor. I KNOW he knows.

The Pro Stock injectors should be inches up higher than they are, but rules.... they can only make the runner so long due to hood clearance, tuned lengths, and rules require placement of the throttle body / type.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by dannobee »

Regarding injector nozzle placement and power output, higher is better, and like Bob said, we've known this for well over 75 years now. You might have other problems, like fuel condensation on the intake manifold walls when the engine is cold, or perhaps throttle response lag, but for power output, it's the ideal location.

When thinking about new ways to approach a problem, I'm inherently lazy and like to see how others approach the same problems. In this case if you look at the more competitive classes with more liberal rules, like F1 (until direct injection) or LeMans prototype or even the old Can Am cars, the injector placement was always as high as possible. Those guys didn't just arrive there because of pure dumb luck or stumble there after a weekend bender.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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I can't believe I have to consult Motor Trend, but some tidbits:
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hrdp- ... -location/
Everything changes with really large injectors (over 96 lb/hr). High-capacity injectors generate a relatively poor spray pattern with a large fuel-droplet size. As Duttweiler puts it: "You're practically just spraying raw liquid. If you put a big injector too close to the valve, there's not enough time for the fuel to mix with the air." Large injectors would most likely be used in large-displacement or high-rpm engines with lumpy cams. High rpm translates into less time between injector firing pulses, lumpy cams generate poor vacuum, and the typically large-volume inlet runners needed to feed all those cubes generally mean lower air velocity downstairs. Obviously, all this adversely affects proper fuel atomization. Moving the injector farther away from the valve allows more time for the air/fuel to atomize properly and remain in suspension when air velocity comes up at high rpm. This should improve peak power but-because of poor low-rpm velocity-at the expense of idle quality (there's no free lunch).

Looking at some real-world examples, Strader reports that on a 1,000hp engine, the injectors were originally located 7 inches back from the valves. Doubling this distance to 14 inches was worth 50 hp on top, a 5 percent gain-but "it wouldn't idle below 1,600 rpm."

In the real world, mass-produced aftermarket cast-aluminum manifolds have the bosses added as an afterthought to a preexisting design. The placement is more for convenience than for best engineering practice-the available packaging architecture (including fuel-rail mounting and clearance) to a large extent dictates the nozzle location. A decent compromise for a hot-rod engine is to locate the nozzle about 1-2 inches upstream from the manifold flange to give atomization a chance, positioning the fuel rail at the best angle you can get away with and still package the harness and fuel rails. As Duttweiler puts it: "If you aim the injector more toward the valve, the fuel rail usually hits the plenum" on a converted classic V-8 carburetor-style intake. Note that at the OEM level, the trend on today's new-tech V-8 engine designs is to make them wider than a similar-displacement, old-school, classic engine. The included valve angle in some of the new late-models is nearly straight up and down in relation to the bore. That means the runners are also near vertical, which in turn allows mounting the injectors more vertically to provide room for the fuel rails and wiring harness while still maintaining a good intercept angle to the runner.
Circling back to Kenny's statement about those large injectors. I don't think anyone has really developed a high pressure system for something like that. F1 builders kept going higher than 100 bar and kept making more power, but rules eventually limited them. Now they use totally different designs.

You can read about Honda's F1 system here:
Development of High-Pressure Fuel Supply System for Formula One Engine
http://f1-forecast.com/pdf/F1-Files/Hon ... P2_15e.pdf
Important factors in boosting the performance of today’s Formula One engines include: the realization of the formation of ideal air-fuel mixtures and the achievement of greater combustion efficiency, through the use of shorter fuel injection periods and increased spray atomization resulting from higher fuel pressures; and, in addition to this, the achievement of stable combustion in the low-load operating range.
A comprehensive analysis of injector spray characteristics was conducted, leading to the development of a Honda-made high-efficiency, high-pressure fuel supply system. This enabled the achievement of a 15 kW increase in engine power.
Note: these F1 injectors flowed 100 L/hr, so that's 163-ish lbs/hr of gasoline. Droplet size 17 um leaving the injector. You would need a carburetor booster, with 24 holes, and 1450psi in the float bowls to even start thinking about coming close to these numbers, and that doesn't even get into pulse width, etc.

With the availability of DI high pressure pumps, I'm surprised no one (that I know of) has played with a high pressure port or shower based FI system, despite the well documented improvements.
Last edited by hoffman900 on Wed Sep 29, 2021 11:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by CamKing »

We proved half a century ago, that injection is far superior to carbs, and that was with mechanical injection.
In the 90's EFI became superior to mechanical injection.
It's not even up for debate.
Carbs are great for the cost, but when cost isn't an issue, it's not even close.
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