Dimpling a LS port

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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by hoffman900 »

digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:32 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:02 am
digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:25 am I’d also like to see data showing a fuel injection system available for mere mortals that cools the inlet charge better than a well sorted carb.
Obviously fuel injection has other advantages but that’s a big one to overcome purely looking at from a hp perspective ( throw in $$$ and hard for some to justify ) and of course there is more to a “tuneup” that wot peak power.
I’m not a carb guy and will be shortly upgrading my efi system to something more modern
You could start by putting the injectors at the same distance from the valve as a carburetor booster.

I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment. Want to make more power? Move the injectors further away from the valve. People have understood this for 50+ years.

Gary, I have, and I'm not going to spell out what I have done for you. The sims make for nice presenting, but most of my real data isn't my own and not for public, because we're racing.

Engine Masters tv is just magazine fodder. Remember when they dented the header, found no change, and said it should be no problem? Sorry, that's not science and they are missing some HUGE points from that test (like the header was way too big and was not the bottleneck in that combo).

Again, in the Richard Holdner video.
I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment.
Why do myself and others have to keep repeating this?

Most of what you guys see out there is the gym equivalent to bro science... Maybe that's a little insulting, but just calling it like it is.
The question I was asking was is there any data that shows the fuel injection actually cools the same or better?
I’m not after some theoretical recipe or whether fuel injection shower vs port injection makes more power as that’s not new information.

I’ve seen many times throttle body injection produce much poorer outcomes so clearly simply adding the right amount of fuel further up is not the answer as the real world is more complicated than that.

If the way to get the cooling effect as good as that of a carb involves not just placing injector at the runner entry, but also requires fully sequential fuel injection with low duty cycle injectors (25-35%) to be able to place the injection event window to conclude with high port velocity conditions which is what I’m going to try then that’s another layer of complexity I can understand many don’t want to be involved with
Your presumption is based on that we actually have good data for what a carburetor can cool things to. Ultimately, this all has to be measured in the cylinder (as that is what matters), not in a port or a plenum. Maybe Clint has data from some clients.

From what I've seen, carburetor air temps are measured in the plenum (after fuel) where an injected engine the manifold is dry (before fuel). So of course the data is going to look better for the carburetor. That doesn't tell you what is happening in the cylinder however.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:45 pm
digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:32 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:02 am

You could start by putting the injectors at the same distance from the valve as a carburetor booster.

I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment. Want to make more power? Move the injectors further away from the valve. People have understood this for 50+ years.

Gary, I have, and I'm not going to spell out what I have done for you. The sims make for nice presenting, but most of my real data isn't my own and not for public, because we're racing.

Engine Masters tv is just magazine fodder. Remember when they dented the header, found no change, and said it should be no problem? Sorry, that's not science and they are missing some HUGE points from that test (like the header was way too big and was not the bottleneck in that combo).

Again, in the Richard Holdner video.

Why do myself and others have to keep repeating this?

Most of what you guys see out there is the gym equivalent to bro science... Maybe that's a little insulting, but just calling it like it is.
The question I was asking was is there any data that shows the fuel injection actually cools the same or better?
I’m not after some theoretical recipe or whether fuel injection shower vs port injection makes more power as that’s not new information.

I’ve seen many times throttle body injection produce much poorer outcomes so clearly simply adding the right amount of fuel further up is not the answer as the real world is more complicated than that.

If the way to get the cooling effect as good as that of a carb involves not just placing injector at the runner entry, but also requires fully sequential fuel injection with low duty cycle injectors (25-35%) to be able to place the injection event window to conclude with high port velocity conditions which is what I’m going to try then that’s another layer of complexity I can understand many don’t want to be involved with
Your presumption is based on that we actually have good data for what a carburetor can cool things to. Ultimately, this all has to be measured in the cylinder (as that is what matters), not in a port or a plenum. Maybe Clint has data from some clients.

From what I've seen, carburetor air temps are measured in the plenum (after fuel) where an injected engine the manifold is dry (before fuel). So of course the data is going to look better for the carburetor. That doesn't tell you what is happening in the cylinder however.
the temp data i recall seeing was measured in the runner iirc certainly not in cylinder, i will see if i can find it
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:26 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:45 pm
digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:32 pm

The question I was asking was is there any data that shows the fuel injection actually cools the same or better?
I’m not after some theoretical recipe or whether fuel injection shower vs port injection makes more power as that’s not new information.

I’ve seen many times throttle body injection produce much poorer outcomes so clearly simply adding the right amount of fuel further up is not the answer as the real world is more complicated than that.

If the way to get the cooling effect as good as that of a carb involves not just placing injector at the runner entry, but also requires fully sequential fuel injection with low duty cycle injectors (25-35%) to be able to place the injection event window to conclude with high port velocity conditions which is what I’m going to try then that’s another layer of complexity I can understand many don’t want to be involved with
Your presumption is based on that we actually have good data for what a carburetor can cool things to. Ultimately, this all has to be measured in the cylinder (as that is what matters), not in a port or a plenum. Maybe Clint has data from some clients.

From what I've seen, carburetor air temps are measured in the plenum (after fuel) where an injected engine the manifold is dry (before fuel). So of course the data is going to look better for the carburetor. That doesn't tell you what is happening in the cylinder however.
the temp data i recall seeing was measured in the runner iirc certainly not in cylinder, i will see if i can find it
I dug through Honda's stuff (they have papers on converting the power equipment from carburetor to FI) and did a quick SAE search and couldn't find anything. Curious to see what you find.

I would think cylinder temp just prior to IVC would be most revealing.

Also, did you read 2nd and 3rd page of that Honda F1 Injection design paper I linked to?
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:45 pm Ultimately, this all has to be measured in the cylinder (as that is what matters), not in a port or a plenum. Maybe Clint has data from some clients.
I'm not sure it is as clear cut as in cylinder what matters as think about extreme case of GDI if the fuel was injected after IVC then that's great for knock reduction but not for the "ramming" phase of cylinder fill. I would think temp matters from the runner entry to throat and the net effect of all things between.

Its like if there was a magic port fuel injector that cooled the air at the valve throat to the same temp as what the air from a carb would be at the same throat position would they behave the same from a VE perspective (ignoring runner differences in size / shape) or would the less density air in the runner above the injector be slightly less effective. Of course there is the BSFC differences to complicate things but i'm thinking about the air density side of things
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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Here is how Honda quantified it:
3AAFAA45-E64C-49F4-865D-689A692A7135.png
2C13CF35-9374-4FAC-8970-BFC14009DC1C.png
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:59 pm Here is how Honda quantified it:

3AAFAA45-E64C-49F4-865D-689A692A7135.png


2C13CF35-9374-4FAC-8970-BFC14009DC1C.png
I have no doubt what they did works well as it in many ways emulates what a carb does inherently. I wonder how important is it to run the really high fuel pressures compared to running a conventional 0.3-0.5MPa system with the equally shorter injection period? Obviously atomisation will be different and they state that this is 2 out of 3 of the mechanisms that improved output.

My interest in this is starting with a conventional 3-5b system that has the injector located at the head / end of intake manifold and run at 90% duty cycle, if injector placement is moved to the start of runner (or dual injector setup) and run with a higher flow injector capable of the much shorter injection period running at 25%-35% duty how much of the charge cooling benefits are reaped and is it worth it.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:28 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:59 pm Here is how Honda quantified it:

3AAFAA45-E64C-49F4-865D-689A692A7135.png


2C13CF35-9374-4FAC-8970-BFC14009DC1C.png
I have no doubt what they did works well as it in many ways emulates what a carb does inherently. I wonder how important is it to run the really high fuel pressures compared to running a conventional 0.3-0.5MPa system with the equally shorter injection period? Obviously atomisation will be different and they state that this is 2 out of 3 of the mechanisms that improved output.

My interest in this is starting with a conventional 3-5b system that has the injector located at the head / end of intake manifold and run at 90% duty cycle, if injector placement is moved to the start of runner (or dual injector setup) and run with a higher flow injector capable of the much shorter injection period running at 25%-35% duty how much of the charge cooling benefits are reaped and is it worth it.
What does it do that a carb does inherently? This atomizes much better than any carb could. This whole thread turned into how much you have to texture the port to atomize and keep fuel from a carburetor atomized. I think the secret to the carb working well is a wet plenum design that just “pulverizes” it all.

Your last paragraph, I’m really not sure in terms of numbers. The more I learn, the more I realize people don’t have the answers as to why and you have to blaze the path.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:48 pm
digger wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 10:28 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:59 pm Here is how Honda quantified it:

3AAFAA45-E64C-49F4-865D-689A692A7135.png


2C13CF35-9374-4FAC-8970-BFC14009DC1C.png
I have no doubt what they did works well as it in many ways emulates what a carb does inherently. I wonder how important is it to run the really high fuel pressures compared to running a conventional 0.3-0.5MPa system with the equally shorter injection period? Obviously atomisation will be different and they state that this is 2 out of 3 of the mechanisms that improved output.

My interest in this is starting with a conventional 3-5b system that has the injector located at the head / end of intake manifold and run at 90% duty cycle, if injector placement is moved to the start of runner (or dual injector setup) and run with a higher flow injector capable of the much shorter injection period running at 25%-35% duty how much of the charge cooling benefits are reaped and is it worth it.
What does it do that a carb does inherently? This atomizes much better than any carb could. This whole thread turned into how much you have to texture the port to atomize and keep fuel from a carburetor atomized.

Your last paragraph, I’m really not sure in terms of numbers. The more I learn, the more I realize people don’t have the answers as to why and you have to blaze the path.
A carb (for pushrod v8 atleast) introduces fuel just prior to runner entry and moves fuel only when air velocity is present. this is what Honda were doing. Atomisation is totally different though.

Carb's don't get the distribution or amount of fuel very correct (at least not easily)and does cause lots of puddle but the non puddled fuel is actually fairly good "quality". Most fuel injector setups will inject fuel when air is stagnant for part of the time obviously the F1 guys were trying to minimise that.

i thought the thread was about reintroducing the fuel that came out of suspension because it hit something like a wall and dimpling/texturing was getting some of it back into the stream. I don't care how much you atomise a fuel if it sprays onto or hits a wall its going to form a liquid and dripple, and the smoother the wall the worse it is. Moving the injector farther up makes hitting the walls before entering the chamber more likely than if closer to the valve so this needs to be counteracted to minimise this.

yes a proper fuel injection system should allow less fuel to hit the walls but its a lot harder than first thought.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by Fatman »

maxracesoftware wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:23 pm i forgot to Post about "Golf Ball Dimples" in Intake Ports :
we got 2 pairs of Brodix/BES dimpled Intake Ports ,
both pairs picked up HP with Dimples ... you cannot verify Dimples in Dry Flowbench tests
same thing wasting your time verifing very rough nasty carbide Burr finishes .. its a waste of time on a Flowbench ,
the Dyno and Dragstrip shows HP + performance gains

https://maxracesoftware.com/bulletinboa ... =70&t=1598

"BBC 501cid 1104HP at 8500 RPM new Golf Ball Dimple finish Brodix 3 Extra"
.... this included :
"Edelbrock Super Victor II with Visner adapter + 1 inch open spacer ... maxed-out very rough carbide finish by Meaux"

1103 HP for 2nd Engine

gained right at 15+ HP w/Golf Ball Dimples both Engines
Larry, were these tests A-B tests with the same pair of heads. So dynoed, pulled off, dimpled, put back on and dynoed again?

Do you have any pics you can post?
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by maxracesoftware »

Fatman » Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:26 am

Do you have any pics you can post?
Those Dyno tests Pics are long gone , plus all my other Pics everywhere on my Forum ,
i just have some Dyno test "Text details" left on all the Posts .
i terminated my PhotoBucket account after they broke promises made multiple times
they've been bought out + greatly downsized , not the PhotoBucket as when they first started out ,
i highly recommend that no one uses PhotoBucket anymore !

i'm trying out https://postimages.org/
so far so good , i just Posted a bunch of Porting Templates for Dart Pro 1 and Brodix Track 1 SBC Heads ,
all pretty large Pics which you can see much more details .
You can Post even much larger Pics than i just did if you wanted to .
It takes a little work for each Pic on postimages.org to be able to Post such large Pics , as they want those very large Pics linked back to their site ,
but i've bypassed that .... it won't work on SpeedTalk Forum , you will see just smaller Pics .
a Forum has to be setup for "Sub-Silver" instead of "Pro-Silver" or a special Pro-Silver version .

i'll re-Post those Dyno tests Pics back on my Forum by this weekend .
i'd rather Post all this on my Forum .
Larry, were these tests A-B tests with the same pair of heads. So dynoed, pulled off, dimpled, put back on and dynoed again?
Yes sort of , one Pair made in 1080's , sent to BES for dimpling , back on the Dyno 1103 HP
the other pair brand new dimpled same Brodix 3 Extas CNC'd+ dimpled -vs- same Heads no dimples just CNC'd
that Engine was in the 1090's HP , then made 1104 HP

some Dyno text data is still there at this Link :
Post Subject : BBC 501cid 1104HP at 8500 RPM new Golf Ball Dimple finish Brodix 3 Extra
https://maxracesoftware.com/bulletinboa ... =70&t=1598
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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hoffman900 wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:45 pm
From what I've seen, carburetor air temps are measured in the plenum (after fuel) where an injected engine the manifold is dry (before fuel). So of course the data is going to look better for the carburetor. That doesn't tell you what is happening in the cylinder however.
I don't have any data, but when we were dynoing the turbo IndyCar engines with 2 injector nozzles per runner(one close to valve, and one close to plenum), we would see frost on the manifold.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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maxracesoftware wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:01 pm
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:34 pm I know for a fact that when the Parks took their B/ND old school Hemi to Books dyno, injector placement, was worth 150hp.

All involved said if they wouldn't have seen it, they wouldn't believe it.
same thing with Craig's B/ND ... injector placement and as much important is Injector "spray direction" inside Cyl Head Intake Port
was worth a lot of HP

i told Craig about F1 with Injectors at the top of Bellmouths ... he's said he's going to see if he can get something fabricated to Dyno test
and then see if Rules would allow something like that in B/ND if it ended up making more HP
Nitrous guys have found similar issues with nozzle placement, I had the idea of putting the nozzle in the head because it eliminated reversion in the runner when tested on the flow bench vs traditional nozzle position but It lost 75 hp on the dyno.
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

Post by Fatman »

maxracesoftware wrote: Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:05 am
Fatman » Thu Sep 30, 2021 1:26 am

Do you have any pics you can post?
Those Dyno tests Pics are long gone , plus all my other Pics everywhere on my Forum ,
i just have some Dyno test "Text details" left on all the Posts .
i terminated my PhotoBucket account after they broke promises made multiple times
they've been bought out + greatly downsized , not the PhotoBucket as when they first started out ,
i highly recommend that no one uses PhotoBucket anymore !

i'm trying out https://postimages.org/
so far so good , i just Posted a bunch of Porting Templates for Dart Pro 1 and Brodix Track 1 SBC Heads ,
all pretty large Pics which you can see much more details .
You can Post even much larger Pics than i just did if you wanted to .
It takes a little work for each Pic on postimages.org to be able to Post such large Pics , as they want those very large Pics linked back to their site ,
but i've bypassed that .... it won't work on SpeedTalk Forum , you will see just smaller Pics .
a Forum has to be setup for "Sub-Silver" instead of "Pro-Silver" or a special Pro-Silver version .

i'll re-Post those Dyno tests Pics back on my Forum by this weekend .
i'd rather Post all this on my Forum .
Larry, were these tests A-B tests with the same pair of heads. So dynoed, pulled off, dimpled, put back on and dynoed again?
Yes sort of , one Pair made in 1080's , sent to BES for dimpling , back on the Dyno 1103 HP
the other pair brand new dimpled same Brodix 3 Extas CNC'd+ dimpled -vs- same Heads no dimples just CNC'd
that Engine was in the 1090's HP , then made 1104 HP

some Dyno text data is still there at this Link :
Post Subject : BBC 501cid 1104HP at 8500 RPM new Golf Ball Dimple finish Brodix 3 Extra
https://maxracesoftware.com/bulletinboa ... =70&t=1598
Thanks for the info Larry.
Were those heads CNC ported by Brodix or someone else? Do BES dimple the SSR and bowl?
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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by Fatman » Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:34 pm

Thanks for the info Larry.
Were those heads CNC ported by Brodix or someone else? Do BES dimple the SSR and bowl?
all 4 Heads were Brodix 3 Extras CNC by BES ( not CNC'd by Brodix on any )
one pair were previously CNC'd by BES , and same Heads were next Golf Ball Dimpled every part of Intake Ports , re-Dyno tested = 1103 HP
the other pair were brand new CNC w/Golf Ball Dimpled every part of Intake Ports -VS- same CNC Brodix 3 Extras BES CNC no dimples = 1104 HP
501 CID BBC

i also found much more Pictures of CNC/Golf Ball Dimpled various Heads by BES , like a SBC Head ,
in all Pics ... BES has Golf Ball Dimples every part of Intake Ports right up to and partially into bottom angle of Valve Job

EDIT :
i forgot about latest CNC'd pair from BES ... these were not Dimpled, just CNC'd
Chris_BES_Brodix_BigBrodie_3Extra_345_CNCd_BPD_Test1_Aug_12_2021.FLO
... plenty of Pics of these too :D
i have no idea why Chris didn't get this pair Dimpled ??? could be $Cost or Customer preferences ???
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Re: Dimpling a LS port

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GARY C wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:37 pm
maxracesoftware wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 1:01 pm
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:34 pm I know for a fact that when the Parks took their B/ND old school Hemi to Books dyno, injector placement, was worth 150hp.

All involved said if they wouldn't have seen it, they wouldn't believe it.
same thing with Craig's B/ND ... injector placement and as much important is Injector "spray direction" inside Cyl Head Intake Port
was worth a lot of HP

i told Craig about F1 with Injectors at the top of Bellmouths ... he's said he's going to see if he can get something fabricated to Dyno test
and then see if Rules would allow something like that in B/ND if it ended up making more HP
Nitrous guys have found similar issues with nozzle placement, I had the idea of putting the nozzle in the head because it eliminated reversion in the runner when tested on the flow bench vs traditional nozzle position but It lost 75 hp on the dyno.
Messed with that idea myself on BBCs as a 4th stage.
You probably screwed around with the jetting thinking that was the issue and got nowhere, yes?
Probably what happens is that you lost the cooling charge effect upstream.

Crower used to market one of their stack injectors with high port nozzle placement was something to be considered. I seem to recall there was one above the butterflies. No loggers, killer tracks or tires in those days so it didn't get explored much by we, the great unwashed.
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