Dimpling a LS port

[hoffman900]

We proved half a century ago, that injection is far superior to carbs, and that was with mechanical injection.
In the 90's EFI became superior to mechanical injection.
It's not even up for debate.
Carbs are great for the cost, but when cost isn't an issue, it's not even close.

Exactly.

A Pro Stock system, no rules, would be a 1500+psi system (Honda's F1 fuel injectors flowed 160-ish lbs/hr at 1450psi rail pressure (rules limited), 15 years ago, so the flow rate is there), with the injectors moved up and pointing down into the port from the bellmouth. It wouldn't even be close performance wise vs what they had or have now.

Note: NHRA Pro Stock has to use spec 160 lb/hr injectors. So essentially the same flow rate, but with 90psi rail pressure, and located in the runner.

As Honda found, the higher pressure allowed for shorter injection duration, which drops intake temps further, plus the smaller droplet size. Also the fact that the fuel is expanding from 1450psi+ to below atmospheric.

[SpeierRacingHeads]

I know for a fact that when the Parks took their B/ND old school Hemi to Books dyno, injector placement, was worth 150hp.

All involved said if they wouldn't have seen it, they wouldn't believe it.

[maxracesoftware]

I know for a fact that when the Parks took their B/ND old school Hemi to Books dyno, injector placement, was worth 150hp.

All involved said if they wouldn't have seen it, they wouldn't believe it.

same thing with Craig's B/ND ... injector placement and as much important is Injector "spray direction" inside Cyl Head Intake Port
was worth a lot of HP

i told Craig about F1 with Injectors at the top of Bellmouths ... he's said he's going to see if he can get something fabricated to Dyno test
and then see if Rules would allow something like that in B/ND if it ended up making more HP

[hoffman900]

I know for a fact that when the Parks took their B/ND old school Hemi to Books dyno, injector placement, was worth 150hp.

All involved said if they wouldn't have seen it, they wouldn't believe it.

same thing with Craig's B/ND ... injector placement and as much important is Injector "spray direction" inside Cyl Head Intake Port
was worth a lot of HP

i told Craig about F1 with Injectors at the top of Bellmouths ... he's said he's going to see if he can get something fabricated to Dyno test
and then see if Rules would allow something like that in B/ND if it ended up making more HP

Larry,

If you think about a wet plenum manifold, it's just a shower carburetor system with fuel falling into a plenum, which serves to dampen pressure pulse to the carburetor and mix the fuel, but it's still above the tuned length of the runner.

The Stand off / shower injectors have been around since the 1970s, at least.

[maxracesoftware]

Chad , here's some Dyno test info on my Forum B/ND "Injector" spray direction :

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:29 pm
https://maxracesoftware.com/bulletinboa ... 578#p14578

[maxracesoftware]

i forgot to Post about "Golf Ball Dimples" in Intake Ports :
we got 2 pairs of Brodix/BES dimpled Intake Ports ,
both pairs picked up HP with Dimples ... you cannot verify Dimples in Dry Flowbench tests
same thing wasting your time verifing very rough nasty carbide Burr finishes .. its a waste of time on a Flowbench ,
the Dyno and Dragstrip shows HP + performance gains

https://maxracesoftware.com/bulletinboa ... =70&t=1598

"BBC 501cid 1104HP at 8500 RPM new Golf Ball Dimple finish Brodix 3 Extra"
.... this included :
"Edelbrock Super Victor II with Visner adapter + 1 inch open spacer ... maxed-out very rough carbide finish by Meaux"

1103 HP for 2nd Engine

gained right at 15+ HP w/Golf Ball Dimples both Engines

[hoffman900]

i forgot to Post about "Golf Ball Dimples" in Intake Ports :
we got 2 pairs of Brodix/BES dimpled Intake Ports ,
both pairs picked up HP with Dimples ... you cannot verify Dimples in Dry Flowbench tests
same thing wasting your time verifing very rough nasty carbide Burr finishes .. its a waste of time on a Flowbench ,
the Dyno and Dragstrip shows HP + performance gains

"BBC 501cid 1104HP at 8500 RPM new Golf Ball Dimple finish Brodix 3 Extra"
.... this included :
"Edelbrock Super Victor II with Visner adapter + 1 inch open spacer ... maxed-out very rough carbide finish by Meaux"

1103 HP for 2nd Engine

gained right at 15+ HP w/Golf Ball Dimples both Engines

Larry,

In BES's case, do you think it's just easier to program the dimples in the CNC machine than a burr finish? That seems to me what is happening, but the effect is the same (and not a dry flow thing).

[CamKing]

I know for a fact that when the Parks took their B/ND old school Hemi to Books dyno, injector placement, was worth 150hp.

All involved said if they wouldn't have seen it, they wouldn't believe it.

Back when Ford decided they wanted to go World of Outlaws Sprint car racing, in the 90's, they had one of the top Dirt Latemodel engine builders building the engine. He didn't have a lot of experience with fuel injection, so he took the engine to Gearte, to have it tuned. They moved the injector nozzles, and picked up 50hp.

[BlitzA64]

injector placement and as much important is Injector "spray direction" inside Cyl Head Intake Port
was worth a lot of HP

A machinist friend of mine built his own individual tube injection and used the 90 degree Ron's deflector nozzles with it. He picked up substantial power by turning them to spray towards the open ram tube end instead of into the port. Not sure what caused him to try it and he has since passed so I will never know.

[In-Tech]

injector placement and as much important is Injector "spray direction" inside Cyl Head Intake Port
was worth a lot of HP

A machinist friend of mine built his own individual tube injection and used the 90 degree Ron's deflector nozzles with it. He picked up substantial power by turning them to spray towards the open ram tube end instead of into the port. Not sure what caused him to try it and he has since passed so I will never know.

He's not the only one, we had Eddie and Fuzzy do that in the 80's with great results.

When rules relax you will see multiple high pressure injectors, timed differently, to include in cylinder, port and plenum.

[SpeierRacingHeads]

On the subject of fins and dykem. This is my 265cc 23º port.

That was at 50" and .800 lift.

My thoughts, dispersion of the center fuel stream is great. I don’t see a vortex on the quench pad opposite the spark plug!

[nhrastocker]

I know for a fact that when the Parks took their B/ND old school Hemi to Books dyno, injector placement, was worth 150hp.

All involved said if they wouldn't have seen it, they wouldn't believe it.

same thing with Craig's B/ND ... injector placement and as much important is Injector "spray direction" inside Cyl Head Intake Port
was worth a lot of HP

i told Craig about F1 with Injectors at the top of Bellmouths ... he's said he's going to see if he can get something fabricated to Dyno test
and then see if Rules would allow something like that in B/ND if it ended up making more HP

Since I used to be involved with Dean Carter's engines, I am very familiar with Craig's engine. Dean and Craig are very close friends, share and work together in the development of their engines. As a matter of fact, I brought up the same idea to Dean about placing the injectors on the bellmouth and asked NHRA if it would be acceptable. NHRA said, NO. There happens to be some particular racers in NHRA Comp Eliminator that would like to see the class go away and have tried for some time.

[SpeierRacingHeads]

One more thing.. Same chamber on a bench with a few pumps of fluid vs. same chamber with 100's of runs on it.

IMO, you can learn a lot from the dykem/alcohol.

[dannobee]

Darin Morgan did this awhile back and posted his results and commentary on youtube, and even used different color dykem at different valve lifts to see where the swirl changed direction with different colors at opposite sides of the port.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFypM7ADAA0&t=1353s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcxp9ufC1DY&t=308s

[digger]

I’d also like to see data showing a fuel injection system available for mere mortals that cools the inlet charge better than a well sorted carb.
Obviously fuel injection has other advantages but that’s a big one to overcome purely looking at from a hp perspective ( throw in $$$ and hard for some to justify ) and of course there is more to a “tuneup” that wot peak power.
I’m not a carb guy and will be shortly upgrading my efi system to something more modern

You could start by putting the injectors at the same distance from the valve as a carburetor booster.

I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment. Want to make more power? Move the injectors further away from the valve. People have understood this for 50+ years.

Gary, I have, and I'm not going to spell out what I have done for you. The sims make for nice presenting, but most of my real data isn't my own and not for public, because we're racing.

Engine Masters tv is just magazine fodder. Remember when they dented the header, found no change, and said it should be no problem? Sorry, that's not science and they are missing some HUGE points from that test (like the header was way too big and was not the bottleneck in that combo).

Again, in the Richard Holdner video.

I'm not sure why people put injectors in the runner of a carburetor manifold, maybe 6" closer to the valve and bypassing the plenum aspect, and are surprised it makes less peak. It seems like such a "d'uh" moment.

Why do myself and others have to keep repeating this?

Most of what you guys see out there is the gym equivalent to bro science... Maybe that's a little insulting, but just calling it like it is.

The question I was asking was is there any data that shows the fuel injection actually cools the same or better?
I’m not after some theoretical recipe or whether fuel injection shower vs port injection makes more power as that’s not new information.

I’ve seen many times throttle body injection produce much poorer outcomes so clearly simply adding the right amount of fuel further up is not the answer as the real world is more complicated than that.

If the way to get the cooling effect as good as that of a carb involves not just placing injector at the runner entry, but also requires fully sequential fuel injection with low duty cycle injectors (25-35%) to be able to place the injection event window to conclude with high port velocity conditions which is what I’m going to try then that’s another layer of complexity I can understand many don’t want to be involved with