Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
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Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
Hi,
Have a new 383 sbc using an Eagle rotating assembly and ran it for about 130 miles. Determined the rings were not seating well as evidenced by blue smoke, fouled plugs, and very sooty oil with little run time. Have eliminated other causes such as valve seals/guides, rocker studs, intake gaskets, PCV, etc.
Suspect the problem was an overly rich condition due to a bad carb washing the walls during break in. The motor is now out of the car, and the heads are off, and there is evidence of glazing in the cyl walls.
Pistons/rods, crank, cam are still in the block, and looking for help on next steps. Have received advice from engine builders and i-net searches which includes:
• Just drive it and the rings will seat at some point.
• Take it apart, hone the cylinders and reassemble using the same rings and bearings as they are still new. Just put them back in the same positions.
• Take apart, hone the cylinders, but replace the rings as they are now mapped to the glazed walls and will not seat well with a new cross-hatch pattern.
• Same as above but replace rings and rod bearings.
Thinking I will hone/deglaze to not leave the oil burning issue to chance, but just not sure if the existing bearings/rings are reusable.
Thanks in advance!
Have a new 383 sbc using an Eagle rotating assembly and ran it for about 130 miles. Determined the rings were not seating well as evidenced by blue smoke, fouled plugs, and very sooty oil with little run time. Have eliminated other causes such as valve seals/guides, rocker studs, intake gaskets, PCV, etc.
Suspect the problem was an overly rich condition due to a bad carb washing the walls during break in. The motor is now out of the car, and the heads are off, and there is evidence of glazing in the cyl walls.
Pistons/rods, crank, cam are still in the block, and looking for help on next steps. Have received advice from engine builders and i-net searches which includes:
• Just drive it and the rings will seat at some point.
• Take it apart, hone the cylinders and reassemble using the same rings and bearings as they are still new. Just put them back in the same positions.
• Take apart, hone the cylinders, but replace the rings as they are now mapped to the glazed walls and will not seat well with a new cross-hatch pattern.
• Same as above but replace rings and rod bearings.
Thinking I will hone/deglaze to not leave the oil burning issue to chance, but just not sure if the existing bearings/rings are reusable.
Thanks in advance!
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
Should not extra rich bore wash have broken in, worn in rings even faster?
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
Certainly interested in others' thoughts, but my understanding is that glazing is when the gas washing creates heat and blow-by such that when oil is introduced, it is "flash burned" into the walls, filling the cross hatch with an enamel-like glaze and creating a smooth surface that will prevent rings from seating properly.
My cylinders are overly smooth for 130 miles, and have an amber haze which I understand to be symptomatic of glazing.
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
You can take a look at the rings, measure some gaps, measure side clearance, see if they didn't wear at all or if they wore a lot.
Look at the second ring face, is it worn 1/3 the way across?,1/2?, all the way?
Then decide if they need to be replaced or try again.
What kind of rings are they? moly?, cast?, chrome?
One time, what I suspect(but not sure) was a fuel wash problem, with moly faced top ring, found extreme wear on the side of the rings and ring lands, virtually no increase in gap, WEIRD!
Don't know till you know. So take a look.
If the bearings look ok, clean of dirt, and the thickness checks good, then they are good. I've never had a problem re-using a decent bearing. Probably had more problems with NEW ones.
But a lot of people don't know what to look FOR.
Aluminum bearings look shiny, babbit looks dull and weird, that's how they are, doesn't mean anything. You are looking for HEAT, uneven wear, ok contact pattern, dirt, flaking..... not looking for animal shapes in the ink blot. If it LOOKS worn, measure there, see HOW much it's worn.
I've seen quite a few bearings, still can't measure wear by looking at them. If you can't measure bearings, well then, um,.... quit messing with bearings. I'm not the police, I mean, you do what you want, but that's how I feel about it if you want to make bearings work.
Look at the second ring face, is it worn 1/3 the way across?,1/2?, all the way?
Then decide if they need to be replaced or try again.
What kind of rings are they? moly?, cast?, chrome?
One time, what I suspect(but not sure) was a fuel wash problem, with moly faced top ring, found extreme wear on the side of the rings and ring lands, virtually no increase in gap, WEIRD!
Don't know till you know. So take a look.
If the bearings look ok, clean of dirt, and the thickness checks good, then they are good. I've never had a problem re-using a decent bearing. Probably had more problems with NEW ones.
But a lot of people don't know what to look FOR.
Aluminum bearings look shiny, babbit looks dull and weird, that's how they are, doesn't mean anything. You are looking for HEAT, uneven wear, ok contact pattern, dirt, flaking..... not looking for animal shapes in the ink blot. If it LOOKS worn, measure there, see HOW much it's worn.
I've seen quite a few bearings, still can't measure wear by looking at them. If you can't measure bearings, well then, um,.... quit messing with bearings. I'm not the police, I mean, you do what you want, but that's how I feel about it if you want to make bearings work.
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
Glazing is a hard, shiny, slippery oil deposit burned onto the cyl walls. Sounds like your problem & it needs to be honed to remove the deposit.
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Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
My feelings are that if you are going to hone the cylinders then you need to replace the rings. When you take it apart take a look at the second ring and make sure it isnt on upside down.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
www.enginerepairshop.com
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
www.enginerepairshop.com
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Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
Four strokes with a 320 grit ball hone followed by a super good hot soapy water wash down, and then new Moly face rings will get you back to being golden.
If you want to get instant seating like factory motors do these days then get a plateau hone also to use as a last step.
The least amount of break in grit in the assembled motor the better!
If the bearings only have some light scratches in there Gray break in coating missing then by all means reuse them!
If you want to get instant seating like factory motors do these days then get a plateau hone also to use as a last step.
The least amount of break in grit in the assembled motor the better!
If the bearings only have some light scratches in there Gray break in coating missing then by all means reuse them!
You can cut a man's tongue from his mouth, but that does not mean he’s a liar, it just shows that you fear the truth he might speak about you!
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
I have a "deglazer", which is a stone hone with the three blades. Believe medium grit. Is a ball hone a better tool for this job?mag2555 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 19, 2021 6:47 am Four strokes with a 320 grit ball hone followed by a super good hot soapy water wash down, and then new Moly face rings will get you back to being golden.
If you want to get instant seating like factory motors do these days then get a plateau hone also to use as a last step.
The least amount of break in grit in the assembled motor the better!
If the bearings only have some light scratches in there Gray break in coating missing then by all means reuse them!
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
I have reused my rings many times in a dragrace only engine and had no problem with the rings reseating I have always used a ball hone for hone after use.
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
i wouldnt have a problem keeping the bearings, but for the price of rings vs the time, and cost of all the gaskets to go into the engine again if they dont seat, the used rings would be in the trash so fast your head would spin.
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Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
Yes, throw the three stone thing in the trash.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
www.enginerepairshop.com
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
www.enginerepairshop.com
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
Thanks everyone for the help. Ordered some new rings, threw the three stone hone in the trash, and will be tearing the short block apart this weekend. Cheers.
Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
x2 ... check for upside-down second rings ... stuff happens
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Re: Reuse of Rings and Bearings When Deglazing Cylinders
Back when I was a young lad working in a Chevy dealership, we had a rash of new 400 SBC's that used oil. The Zone Rep, had us doing all kinds of stuff to seat the rings. One thing was dumping a little borax down the carbs and running the crap out of it. None of the tricks worked, simply tearing down the engine and installing new rings with a quick hone job. Back in those days they had us do it in the vehicle. really hard to get it clean, but we did what we were told, would never do it now. The other thing was seeing what the borax did to the cylinders and how it got packed in behind the piston rings. And the ball hone is great IF the cylinders are round and straight, if they are not boring or a quality stone hone should be used. On an engine with any miles, I often do a few strokes with my rigid hone, just to see if it shows up any wear or low spots. Then finish with the ball hone, if it looks OK. Saves a lot of time measuring, very visual and easy to spot the areas the hone did not touch.