How much to flow heads

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

Moderator: Team

User avatar
frnkeore
Expert
Expert
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 am
Location: Oregon

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by frnkeore »

hoffman900 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:31 am
Each guy you hire, makes you even more profit, right? If you have 20k sq ft, you dam sure, better have the employees to handle the work and when you are stretched thin, on your time, what do you do, turn on the customer or hire a general manager?
You need to cover the additional employee's salary + benefits / insurance + taxes + resources consumed (consumables, bathroom supplies, etc.) in revenue and then profit on top of that. So an employee making $60k (which isn't even all that much) will need to bring in $100k+ in revenue for it to really make sense.

That's why someone making $20hr (which is low) might have a billable rate of $75/hr +

Hiring part time help just perpetuates many of the issues that is wrong with many parts of the economy, imo.
So, your business model, is that you make more money, with less employee's? That would mean that you would make the most profit with no employee's?

Bath room supplies, would certainly last much longer ;)
User avatar
af2
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7014
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:42 pm
Location: Grass Valley, CA :Northern Foothills

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by af2 »

mt-engines wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:27 pm
frnkeore wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:19 pm
mt-engines wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:41 pm
Why flow a head for $50 when I can do a VJ for $300.. hourly labor is required.. some are dirty, some need a valve job. Some need me to find a valve.. shop rate
This is a red flag for me. I'm a retired aerospace machine shop owner so, I have been in business and couldn't do the above, to anyone.

The only way I can see something like that that to be ethical, would be to give a big discount on the flow bench so, the customer could actually see what that "special" valve job would do, in before and after testing.

I wanted my head tested, because I had ported it, using my valve angles! Now if MT said that he could improve the flow by ~x cfm, with his modifications. I might say "go for it" but, there will have to be a improvement, close to your numbers or no extra $.

I do agree with the condition of the heads, be a variable on pricing. My where clean and bare.
All I'm saying is if it takes .5 hour to flow a port, and I charge $65 .. is that too much?

If someone wants to argue price.... buy the machine, buy the electricity, bore sizes fixtures etc.. and rethink what I said..

If you want me to do a flow study, you pay for the time.. why should I lower my shop rate for anything tied to my business?

Thats why I mentioned a valve job.. i'd rather do a valve job and resurface vs barter some guy that wants to know an arbitrary value. I do not have a problem flowing a head.. but don't tell me what my time is worth.
Exactly!!!!!!!!!! I go through this shit every day and have to tell them if you want it done good it takes time.
GURU is only a name.
Adam
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by hoffman900 »

frnkeore wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:25 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:31 am
Each guy you hire, makes you even more profit, right? If you have 20k sq ft, you dam sure, better have the employees to handle the work and when you are stretched thin, on your time, what do you do, turn on the customer or hire a general manager?
You need to cover the additional employee's salary + benefits / insurance + taxes + resources consumed (consumables, bathroom supplies, etc.) in revenue and then profit on top of that. So an employee making $60k (which isn't even all that much) will need to bring in $100k+ in revenue for it to really make sense.

That's why someone making $20hr (which is low) might have a billable rate of $75/hr +

Hiring part time help just perpetuates many of the issues that is wrong with many parts of the economy, imo.
So, your business model, is that you make more money, with less employee's? That would mean that you would make the most profit with no employee's?

Bath room supplies, would certainly last much longer ;)
No, just the threshold to hire more employees requires A LOT more sustainable revenue.
-Bob
ClassAct
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:55 pm
Location:

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by ClassAct »

hoffman900 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:55 am
frnkeore wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:25 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:31 am

You need to cover the additional employee's salary + benefits / insurance + taxes + resources consumed (consumables, bathroom supplies, etc.) in revenue and then profit on top of that. So an employee making $60k (which isn't even all that much) will need to bring in $100k+ in revenue for it to really make sense.

That's why someone making $20hr (which is low) might have a billable rate of $75/hr +

Hiring part time help just perpetuates many of the issues that is wrong with many parts of the economy, imo.
So, your business model, is that you make more money, with less employee's? That would mean that you would make the most profit with no employee's?

Bath room supplies, would certainly last much longer ;)
No, just the threshold to hire more employees requires A LOT more sustainable revenue.

Sustainable being a key word in your post.
gunt
Expert
Expert
Posts: 521
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:52 pm
Location:

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by gunt »

nearly too cheap , cos flowing the head and the .5hr conversation initally , this is why we dont dyno any other cars , its the agreuing / conversation after that your equipment is off , as you didn't flow them before hand .

and if you thinking 100k in revenue to pay a salary of 60k , you will be broke , as you are not bearly covering him , he is using equipment which has ware and tare , also upgrades , from here to pay 40keuro would require 100k euro and that would be at a computer , if he is in a bay ive worked out each bay to cost 15k and then that bay needs updates yearly plus all the rest , i wish i followed my advice ,
User avatar
BOOT
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2895
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:23 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by BOOT »

BradH wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:16 am If nothing else, this thread has certainly shown how differently business owners can view the need for, and benefit of, interacting with prospective or small-job customers.
It also shows why some are more successful than others.
Channel About My diy Projects & Reviews https://www.youtube.com/c/BOOTdiy

I know as much as I can learn and try to keep an open mind to anything!

If I didn't overthink stuff I wouldn't be on speedtalk!
User avatar
af2
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7014
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:42 pm
Location: Grass Valley, CA :Northern Foothills

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by af2 »

BOOT wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:05 pm
BradH wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:16 am If nothing else, this thread has certainly shown how differently business owners can view the need for, and benefit of, interacting with prospective or small-job customers.
It also shows why some are more successful than others.
It also shows why some are still Busy.
GURU is only a name.
Adam
User avatar
BOOT
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2895
Joined: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:23 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by BOOT »

fabr wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:14 pm You aren't a small shop owner are you.
Not atm

Talk to successful large shop owners and see how many excuses you get.
Channel About My diy Projects & Reviews https://www.youtube.com/c/BOOTdiy

I know as much as I can learn and try to keep an open mind to anything!

If I didn't overthink stuff I wouldn't be on speedtalk!
User avatar
af2
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7014
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:42 pm
Location: Grass Valley, CA :Northern Foothills

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by af2 »

hoffman900 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:55 am
frnkeore wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:25 pm
hoffman900 wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:31 am

You need to cover the additional employee's salary + benefits / insurance + taxes + resources consumed (consumables, bathroom supplies, etc.) in revenue and then profit on top of that. So an employee making $60k (which isn't even all that much) will need to bring in $100k+ in revenue for it to really make sense.

That's why someone making $20hr (which is low) might have a billable rate of $75/hr +

Hiring part time help just perpetuates many of the issues that is wrong with many parts of the economy, imo.
So, your business model, is that you make more money, with less employee's? That would mean that you would make the most profit with no employee's?

Bath room supplies, would certainly last much longer ;)
No, just the threshold to hire more employees requires A LOT more sustainable revenue.
That is the point most don't know!! I have 3 employees and make less money!! Wow How people don't look at the big picture..
GURU is only a name.
Adam
User avatar
af2
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7014
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2007 4:42 pm
Location: Grass Valley, CA :Northern Foothills

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by af2 »

frnkeore wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:19 pm
mt-engines wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:41 pm
Why flow a head for $50 when I can do a VJ for $300.. hourly labor is required.. some are dirty, some need a valve job. Some need me to find a valve.. shop rate
This is a red flag for me. I'm a retired aerospace machine shop owner so, I have been in business and couldn't do the above, to anyone.

The only way I can see something like that that to be ethical, would be to give a big discount on the flow bench so, the customer could actually see what that "special" valve job would do, in before and after testing.

I wanted my head tested, because I had ported it, using my valve angles! Now if MT said that he could improve the flow by ~x cfm, with his modifications. I might say "go for it" but, there will have to be a improvement, close to your numbers or no extra $.

I do agree with the condition of the heads, be a variable on pricing. My where clean and bare.
What is wrong with your post is the fact you put him down for charging what he does. Don't use his shop and find another that will doo it for literally
1/2 and you get what you pay for. A good shop will also tell you how to fix it and the price....
GURU is only a name.
Adam
User avatar
frnkeore
Expert
Expert
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 am
Location: Oregon

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by frnkeore »

af2 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:28 pm
frnkeore wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:19 pm
mt-engines wrote: ↑Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:41 pm
Why flow a head for $50 when I can do a VJ for $300.. hourly labor is required.. some are dirty, some need a valve job. Some need me to find a valve.. shop rate
This is a red flag for me. I'm a retired aerospace machine shop owner so, I have been in business and couldn't do the above, to anyone.

The only way I can see something like that that to be ethical, would be to give a big discount on the flow bench so, the customer could actually see what that "special" valve job would do, in before and after testing.

I wanted my head tested, because I had ported it, using my valve angles! Now if MT said that he could improve the flow by ~x cfm, with his modifications. I might say "go for it" but, there will have to be a improvement, close to your numbers or no extra $.

I do agree with the condition of the heads, be a variable on pricing. My where clean and bare.
What is wrong with your post is the fact you put him down for charging what he does. Don't use his shop and find another that will doo it for literally
1/2 and you get what you pay for. A good shop will also tell you how to fix it and the price....
I hate to point it out but, his business practice, is called "Bait & Switch", that is my issue with it.
That is the point most don't know!! I have 3 employees and make less money!! Wow How people don't look at the big picture..
You must be a very charitable person or maybe you need to fire 2 or 3 of them, to make what you want.

3 is exactly the number of employees I had but, my main problem, was getting all three to show up, every day (especially on Mon). I ran machines very seldom, my main job was quoting, material supply, consulting with my machinists as to how to set up and route the work, as well as inspection, HT, plating and shipping. I had very little time to work on the floor.

Most of my work (actual machining of parts), lasted 3 days to 3 weeks or, more. THEN, I had to wait 2 weeks, to 30 days, to get paid, after funding their pay and all materials and processing!!

No one has talked about the jobs that they made a killing on, only the ones that "cost" them time. It all works out in the end or you dam sure wouldn't be doing it, now would you?
hoffman900
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3445
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:42 pm
Location:

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by hoffman900 »

gunt wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:23 pm nearly too cheap , cos flowing the head and the .5hr conversation initally , this is why we dont dyno any other cars , its the agreuing / conversation after that your equipment is off , as you didn't flow them before hand .

and if you thinking 100k in revenue to pay a salary of 60k , you will be broke , as you are not bearly covering him , he is using equipment which has ware and tare , also upgrades , from here to pay 40keuro would require 100k euro and that would be at a computer , if he is in a bay ive worked out each bay to cost 15k and then that bay needs updates yearly plus all the rest , i wish i followed my advice ,
Yeah, it was hypothetical. Point being hiring an employee and paying them reasonably requires A LOT more revenue.
-Bob
Chris_Hamilton
Pro
Pro
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun May 24, 2015 11:50 pm
Location:

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by Chris_Hamilton »

frnkeore wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:19 pm
I hate to point it out but, his business practice, is called "Bait & Switch", that is my issue with it.
It would only be bait and switch if he was advertising head flowing services for X amount of dollars and then tried to upsale to say a valvejob that cost more. If someone comes in asking about flowing a head and he tries to dissuade them for the reasons given, that is not bait and switch. #-o That is attempting to educate the customer.
High quality metal, body and paint work
http://www.spiuserforum.com/index.php?t ... inia.9030/
ClassAct
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:55 pm
Location:

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by ClassAct »

frnkeore wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 5:09 pm
af2 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:28 pm
frnkeore wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:19 pm
This is a red flag for me. I'm a retired aerospace machine shop owner so, I have been in business and couldn't do the above, to anyone.

The only way I can see something like that that to be ethical, would be to give a big discount on the flow bench so, the customer could actually see what that "special" valve job would do, in before and after testing.

I wanted my head tested, because I had ported it, using my valve angles! Now if MT said that he could improve the flow by ~x cfm, with his modifications. I might say "go for it" but, there will have to be a improvement, close to your numbers or no extra $.

I do agree with the condition of the heads, be a variable on pricing. My where clean and bare.
What is wrong with your post is the fact you put him down for charging what he does. Don't use his shop and find another that will doo it for literally
1/2 and you get what you pay for. A good shop will also tell you how to fix it and the price....
I hate to point it out but, his business practice, is called "Bait & Switch", that is my issue with it.
That is the point most don't know!! I have 3 employees and make less money!! Wow How people don't look at the big picture..
You must be a very charitable person or maybe you need to fire 2 or 3 of them, to make what you want.

3 is exactly the number of employees I had but, my main problem, was getting all three to show up, every day (especially on Mon). I ran machines very seldom, my main job was quoting, material supply, consulting with my machinists as to how to set up and route the work, as well as inspection, HT, plating and shipping. I had very little time to work on the floor.

Most of my work (actual machining of parts), lasted 3 days to 3 weeks or, more. THEN, I had to wait 2 weeks, to 30 days, to get paid, after funding their pay and all materials and processing!!

No one has talked about the jobs that they made a killing on, only the ones that "cost" them time. It all works out in the end or you dam sure wouldn't be doing it, now would you?
Clearly you have no idea what bait and switch means. Flow a head for 50 bucks or make 300 for a valve job? Only the broke shop does the former.
6.50camaro
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 594
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:24 pm
Location: Summer Shade, Ky

Re: How much to flow heads

Post by 6.50camaro »

frnk , I think you've misunderstood MT's statement . I read and understood it to mean . Why do it for $50 , they come in dirty, missing parts or needing repair . You waste a lot of time getting them ready for the 1/2 hr job that it should be . They pay hourly shop rate for time spend doing the job . end of sentence . He would rather do a $300 valve job where he knows the rate is covered not that he's trying to up sell someone a valve job that wants their heads flowed.
Just my take and .02$ on the whole exchange . Dan
Post Reply