2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

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Dragginwagon406
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

skinny z wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:57 pm Question:
First the preface.
I get it. It's obviously sparked a wild fire here a ST (and probably elsewhere). And that in itself is something to keep the combination going. Most definitely a cool piece of machinery.
But...
What about a set of ET Streets like the Hellcat Roadrunner?
A track only thing, although with that goes some of the cache I know. But, a little more grip for the 1st 60', maybe some more gear but not so much as to kill your cruising RPM, and your...
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:32 pm ...goal is to run 11.50s with an engine which idles as smooth as possible. An engine you truly don't know what it has until you see the slip (or the tail lights). Kind of like my race against that '68 Road Runner with the Hell Cat engine - it idled smooth and with the hood down, you had not idea it would haze the tires through the 60' and take me to Gapple Bees.

1.83 60’, 10.38 @ 136.12 Roadrunner (looked like 275/60-15 ET Streets)
1.91 60’, 11.93 @ 119.46 for the Monte. (225/70-15 Cooper Cobras)

This whole thing makes me rethink the approach to the cammed 502 BBC in the 86 TA. With a TKO 500 and a 3.73 rear gear, it makes for a difficult day at the track. No matter how much you peddle it.
Kind of makes me want to try the start in 2nd gear. Hmm...
I have a set of 275/60-15 ET Streets on 15x8 5.0 BS wheels. I plan on using them at the Airport Drags next year. On a prepped surfaced, I prefer to run stock appearing.

I also have a 3.31 gear and a second 12-bolt, if buy a 3-Series carrier and swap diffs, I could have people second guessing themselves 😂
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by 67 Nova »

Drag, IF the 275 fit, and stock appearing is the name of the game, try some Nitto's. They don't hook as well as ET streets, but look just a modern radial tire and your your not trying to hook 1200Hp. YES a 275 will also get away from the unassuming look of the car, so maybe look around for a 255 or a 225 style street DOT tire.

90+% of ANY car that runs can NOT flat foot it off the line, as I'm sure you well know. So what about pulling timing? I know we do that with MSD boxes and I doubt you want to go with that look. SO, I'M NOT SURE THIS WOULD WORK. BUT why not put a RPM retard box on a toggle switch. Lets say 6 deg retard. You do to launch with -6 degress, and then get a RPM window switch to shut the retard OFF at a certain RPM and run normal timing for the rest of the run? IF that could work, along with a stickier 225 tire and a gear, I could see 11.40 or better???

Just a thought and that is what these forums are for right.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Machtuck »

Man, what a great thread. I have a beautiful 1972 monte and a fresh 496 that i built for it in September. It’s basically el chepo Scat kit at 9.6:1 with iron ported 781 heads. I took the small voodoo hyd roller out of a 454 i had and used it. It’s off the shelf at 231/239/600/600/110.
Performer rpm and 800 DP. Tried to use a tweeked quadrajet but the difference between the DP and quadrajet is no comparison; and no bog with the heavy car either. Painted it all orange and it looks like the stock 402. 😜 It’s a blast to drive and super streetable. I’m currently running a 3:42 gear and a hughes 2500 converter with a TH400 that i upgraded. You got me wondering if I should throw the 2:73 back in that was factory. Wonder if the 2:73 would fit on the series 3 carrier???
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

Machtuck wrote: Sat Dec 11, 2021 7:50 am Man, what a great thread. I have a beautiful 1972 monte and a fresh 496 that i built for it in September. It’s basically el chepo Scat kit at 9.6:1 with iron ported 781 heads. I took the small voodoo hyd roller out of a 454 i had and used it. It’s off the shelf at 231/239/600/600/110.
Performer rpm and 800 DP. Tried to use a tweeked quadrajet but the difference between the DP and quadrajet is no comparison; and no bog with the heavy car either. Painted it all orange and it looks like the stock 402. 😜 It’s a blast to drive and super streetable. I’m currently running a 3:42 gear and a hughes 2500 converter with a TH400 that i upgraded. You got me wondering if I should throw the 2:73 back in that was factory. Wonder if the 2:73 would fit on the series 3 carrier???
Sounds like an awesome Monte.

How does it run with the 3.42 gear?

What tires are you running? If you have real tires like a Cooper or BFG, can you put down the power to make a respectable ET on the street?

One of the main reasons I run my car like I do is because it’s easy to drive from a dig (low-mid 12s).

Did you upgrade your pickup in the tank and fuel line?

If you have a 12-bolt, you’ll need the 2-Series carrier to go back to the 2.73.
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Machtuck »

The car is an original BB car so it has the 3/8” fuel line from tank to pump. I’m running a stock fuel pump too. No starvation at all. Pulls past 6,000 with no issues. Running 245/60/15 BF Goodrich tires at 26.6”. The 3:42 is a tad too much on the highway. I’m probably going to put a 3:08 in and it should still play nice with the converter. The car has massive torque with that smallish hyd roller. It’s a real joy to drive; bench seat/ column shifter and all! 😂

Vortec, looking forward to the same build with exhaust manifolds…😉
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

Machtuck wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 12:28 am The car is an original BB car so it has the 3/8” fuel line from tank to pump. I’m running a stock fuel pump too. No starvation at all. Pulls past 6,000 with no issues. Running 245/60/15 BF Goodrich tires at 26.6”. The 3:42 is a tad too much on the highway. I’m probably going to put a 3:08 in and it should still play nice with the converter. The car has massive torque with that smallish hyd roller. It’s a real joy to drive; bench seat/ column shifter and all! 😂

Vortec, looking forward to the same build with exhaust manifolds…😉
Have you raced it or tested performance with a Draggy, G-Tech, or something similar? Any video?

How is it launching the car from a dead stop?
Can you take off quickly and manage the wheel spin well?
How quickly can you achieve wide open throttle?

What I'm looking for is if you're 60'/0-60 time with 3.42 and modest stall converter would be an improvement or if I'm on the right track with my current setup in order to run 11s with 225/70-15 Coopers. I know if a run has the potential to dip into the 11s in the first 30', wheel spin and how quickly I can achieve wide open throttle tell me.

I'm still on the fence about switching to manifolds; I want the ability to run 11.50s on 225/50-15 Coopers, and drive it everywhere (i.e., with highway gears). It's not clear to me that can be done without headers and aftermarket intake/carb, at least in my current configuration.
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Machtuck »

I haven’t ran it yet. The nearest 1/4 mile track from Where i live in Nashville is in Bowling Green KY. I plan on running it in the spring. I’ve tried to keep the sleeper look and have the original 402 badges on it, Pertronix in the original distributor and Pertronix coil and wires. Grinded the “Edelbrock Performer RPM Quadrajet “ off the intake and painted it orange. I rebuilt the original Th400 last with upgrades like transgo kit, 34 element sprague and upgraded forward drum. The trans kit is from Jakes performance in Ft Worth and good for about 800hp. It shifts great. Other than the moderate steep 3:42, the car drives like a Caddy and a great cruiser. I guess gears like 3:55 and 3:70 were commonplace back in the 70’s. My rpm calculator shows that even a 3:08 gear would be 2700 rpms with my tire. It is 4160# with me (180lbs). Gonna buy some street Micky’s and report back this spring with some numbers.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

Machtuck wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:03 pm I haven’t ran it yet. The nearest 1/4 mile track from Where i live in Nashville is in Bowling Green KY. I plan on running it in the spring. I’ve tried to keep the sleeper look and have the original 402 badges on it, Pertronix :mrgreen: in the original distributor and Pertronix coil and wires. Grinded the “Edelbrock Performer RPM Quadrajet “ off the intake and painted it orange. I rebuilt the original Th400 last with upgrades like transgo kit, 34 element sprague and upgraded forward drum. The trans kit is from Jakes performance in Ft Worth and good for about 800hp. It shifts great. Other than the moderate steep 3:42, the car drives like a Caddy and a great cruiser. I guess gears like 3:55 and 3:70 were commonplace back in the 70’s. My rpm calculator shows that even a 3:08 gear would be 2700 rpms with my tire. It is 4160# with me (180lbs). Gonna buy some street Micky’s and report back this spring with some numbers.
Hopefully you guys came through the storms safely.

We need photos and videos of your Monte :mrgreen:

I’m all for stock appearing, I’d love to go back to small cap with Pertronix, but the factory HEI is so simple (and spare parts are available at any parts store). Also love the idea of sneaking in a RPM spread-bore QuadraJet intake. Maybe I should give the QuadraJet a try…I’ve heard there’s no chance of it being happy on my engine without extensive rework, but maybe I should just give it a try and report back.

I’ve read good things about Jake in many forums (before he pulled out and/or changed screen names). I have a straight cut planetary 400 and aluminum shaft ready, if the 350 hiccups, but I’m not ready to give up that extra ET yet.

How quick can you accelerate on the street with normal tires, is traction with 3.42 gears manageable without ET Streets?
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Machtuck »

Thanks for the well wishes. The tornadoes occurred about 120 miles north of us. Many lives lost, very sad.

I tried to upload a video of it idling but it doesn’t show up. The pictures were able to upload.


The car definitely has traction issues. I’m not sure a numerically lower gear would remedy that without some suspension work. I would like to know how those FAST guys hook so well with bias ply tires!
I’ve always liked quadrajets for their great drivability and large primaries. You can always feel, seat of the pants when those secondaries open. The DP makes this thing a whole lot better however. No bogs and has been pretty streetable. It’s probably too small for a 496 anyway.
The Scat kit was balanced and went together very tightly: .0015-.0018. The ICONs are very noisy until they warm up. Overall, It seems like a decent kit for under 6000 rpms.
This car would be a way better driver with the original 2:73. I’m not sure if it would remedy the traction issues but would be way better on the highway. I noticed the OEMs didn’t put anything steeper than 3:08 on GM vehicles with AC. Maybe the added rpms were too much for the 200lb GM A6 compressors?😂
I’ll try to upload another video today.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

Machtuck wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:47 am Thanks for the well wishes. The tornadoes occurred about 120 miles north of us. Many lives lost, very sad.

I tried to upload a video of it idling but it doesn’t show up. The pictures were able to upload.


The car definitely has traction issues. I’m not sure a numerically lower gear would remedy that without some suspension work. I would like to know how those FAST guys hook so well with bias ply tires!
I’ve always liked quadrajets for their great drivability and large primaries. You can always feel, seat of the pants when those secondaries open. The DP makes this thing a whole lot better however. No bogs and has been pretty streetable. It’s probably too small for a 496 anyway.
The Scat kit was balanced and went together very tightly: .0015-.0018. The ICONs are very noisy until they warm up. Overall, It seems like a decent kit for under 6000 rpms.
This car would be a way better driver with the original 2:73. I’m not sure if it would remedy the traction issues but would be way better on the highway. I noticed the OEMs didn’t put anything steeper than 3:08 on GM vehicles with AC. Maybe the added rpms were too much for the 200lb GM A6 compressors?😂
I’ll try to upload another video today.
You might have better luck hosting the videos on YouTube.

I know some of the FAST guys are using programmable timing curves based on time, combined with judicious use of the accelerator.

I think you meant small primaries, not large, or meant to say large secondaries. I’ve heard the limit for QuadraJet carbs is somewhere in the low-to-mid 500 hp range. What happens when the bowl runs out of fuel?

Your engine looks fantastic! Did you make or buy the fuel lines? What air filter base connects to the valve cover so cleanly?

Put the 2.73s back in…welcome back to the dark side 😂

If you’re seeing a decent amount of track time, the electric fans are a no-brainer. The fans allow you to bring the temperature back down between runs. Aside from that, 95°F ambient is no issue.

Let’s see the car 😝
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by 67 Nova »

Machtuck wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:47 am The DP makes this thing a whole lot better however. No bogs and has been pretty streetable. It’s probably too small for a 496 anyway.
UMM, NO. The OEM dual plane is more than capable of supplying whatever this 496 needs.

We have many many BBc engines from 396 to 532 with dual planes that go from stock to 800Hp. Look at these 2 engines that BOTH use GM dual plane.

522 with Brodix RR and '68 '163 dual plane. Pump gas 10.5 - 1 with under 700 street roller and now with a Pro Systems 1050 CFM 4150 carb. In a '68 Rs/SS Camaro with a 5 speed. Dyno with 1 3/4 old headers and Ultra 950 carb was just over 720Hp. The new headers and 1050 should be right about 750+Hp.

My own F.A.S.T. style 475 inch ZL-1 with GM block, 074 heads and 198 intake pump gas with a more aggressive cam did show 785Hp on the dyno. The model says we should be just over 800Hp. We were 3 or 4 MORE then the model all the way to 6700, then just stayed at 785Hp. We think the block is then moving around and losing seals a bit, as it's designed to to peak at 7200.

Now I'm doing 2 pump gas deals right now to. I have the Dart/Sunny's heads a C427X intake. The heads flow 378 at .650 and with intake we have gotten it to flow 357 at .650. We have modded the head more and they now flow 389 @ .700 but haven't gotten back into the intake. BUT we know the '198 intake has flowed almost 370 CFM thru the heads/intake above. The second is a set of Flotek 290's with a RPM Air Gap. That one is pump gas as well with the goal being 800Hp, but that's not with a GM dual plane. Both should be done in spring.

Point is, the GM dual plane can easily be made to flow what MANY heads will. If the Brodix BB2, 2x and x+ line is in the 370 range, then the GM dual plane can certain flow there.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by 67 Nova »

Dragginwagon406 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:38 pm
Machtuck wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:47 am Thanks for the well wishes. The tornadoes occurred about 120 miles north of us. Many lives lost, very sad.

I tried to upload a video of it idling but it doesn’t show up. The pictures were able to upload.


The car definitely has traction issues. I’m not sure a numerically lower gear would remedy that without some suspension work. I would like to know how those FAST guys hook so well with bias ply tires!
I’ve always liked quadrajets for their great drivability and large primaries. You can always feel, seat of the pants when those secondaries open. The DP makes this thing a whole lot better however. No bogs and has been pretty streetable. It’s probably too small for a 496 anyway.
The Scat kit was balanced and went together very tightly: .0015-.0018. The ICONs are very noisy until they warm up. Overall, It seems like a decent kit for under 6000 rpms.
This car would be a way better driver with the original 2:73. I’m not sure if it would remedy the traction issues but would be way better on the highway. I noticed the OEMs didn’t put anything steeper than 3:08 on GM vehicles with AC. Maybe the added rpms were too much for the 200lb GM A6 compressors?😂
I’ll try to upload another video today.
You might have better luck hosting the videos on YouTube.

I know some of the FAST guys are using programmable timing curves based on time, combined with judicious use of the accelerator.

I think you meant small primaries, not large, or meant to say large secondaries. I’ve heard the limit for QuadraJet carbs is somewhere in the low-to-mid 500 hp range. What happens when the bowl runs out of fuel?

Your engine looks fantastic! Did you make or buy the fuel lines? What air filter base connects to the valve cover so cleanly?

Put the 2.73s back in…welcome back to the dark side 😂

If you’re seeing a decent amount of track time, the electric fans are a no-brainer. The fans allow you to bring the temperature back down between runs. Aside from that, 95°F ambient is no issue.

Let’s see the car 😝
Draggin, I think the Qjets could go more the 550. Maybe look around SuperStock guys and chat with them. There are issues trying to run the highly modified Qjets on the street as there just not ment for that, as per one of the Qjet builders from SS I did talk to.

AS for cooling between rounds? We used quick connects and a ball valve in the rad hose with a pump in a cooler with ice. Since antifreeze is a big no no at the tracks anyway. We just circulate the ice water thru the motor and cooled it right down. BUT that does take away from the stock look.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

67 Nova wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:46 am
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 3:38 pm
Machtuck wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 8:47 am Thanks for the well wishes. The tornadoes occurred about 120 miles north of us. Many lives lost, very sad.

I tried to upload a video of it idling but it doesn’t show up. The pictures were able to upload.


The car definitely has traction issues. I’m not sure a numerically lower gear would remedy that without some suspension work. I would like to know how those FAST guys hook so well with bias ply tires!
I’ve always liked quadrajets for their great drivability and large primaries. You can always feel, seat of the pants when those secondaries open. The DP makes this thing a whole lot better however. No bogs and has been pretty streetable. It’s probably too small for a 496 anyway.
The Scat kit was balanced and went together very tightly: .0015-.0018. The ICONs are very noisy until they warm up. Overall, It seems like a decent kit for under 6000 rpms.
This car would be a way better driver with the original 2:73. I’m not sure if it would remedy the traction issues but would be way better on the highway. I noticed the OEMs didn’t put anything steeper than 3:08 on GM vehicles with AC. Maybe the added rpms were too much for the 200lb GM A6 compressors?😂
I’ll try to upload another video today.
You might have better luck hosting the videos on YouTube.

I know some of the FAST guys are using programmable timing curves based on time, combined with judicious use of the accelerator.

I think you meant small primaries, not large, or meant to say large secondaries. I’ve heard the limit for QuadraJet carbs is somewhere in the low-to-mid 500 hp range. What happens when the bowl runs out of fuel?

Your engine looks fantastic! Did you make or buy the fuel lines? What air filter base connects to the valve cover so cleanly?

Put the 2.73s back in…welcome back to the dark side 😂

If you’re seeing a decent amount of track time, the electric fans are a no-brainer. The fans allow you to bring the temperature back down between runs. Aside from that, 95°F ambient is no issue.

Let’s see the car 😝
Draggin, I think the Qjets could go more the 550. Maybe look around SuperStock guys and chat with them. There are issues trying to run the highly modified Qjets on the street as there just not ment for that, as per one of the Qjet builders from SS I did talk to.

AS for cooling between rounds? We used quick connects and a ball valve in the rad hose with a pump in a cooler with ice. Since antifreeze is a big no no at the tracks anyway. We just circulate the ice water thru the motor and cooled it right down. BUT that does take away from the stock look.
I had a conversation going with Harold Bettes before he passed away unexpectedly. He outlined a plan to make to make the QuadraJet work but it required a very specialized fuel system and very tough to package in a stock appearing and street cruising car.

Agree about the factory 163 intake, it can support a lot of power but it’s not the right choice for my car (given my converter and gear).
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by 67 Nova »

Dragginwagon406 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:37 am Agree about the factory 163 intake, it can support a lot of power but it’s not the right choice for my car (given my converter and gear).
Can you please explain your rational behind this comment? In fact, I see the exact opposite with your combo.

I feel that with your combo, gear and converter, this would be better suited as it quite possibly take a little of the off-converter bottom end away, yet from say 3500 on, would work better then the cast, plus less weight on the front end and maybe a big higher RPM? AND if that were the case, then it could be more then possible to switch to a 3.08 gear, flat foot launch, yet quicker acceleration for the 60 ft on?

I compared your final drive of the 350 and 2.56's to what my new car has, 700R4 and 3.73. with the same tire, were within about 75 RPM at 65 MPH. And boy I will certainly have a TONS more issues coming off the line with the first gear of the 700. I know it's far from optimum but it's what there and will try that for a bit.

I'm only looking for a pump gas, daily driver with PW, cruise and AC and can run 10 hrs on the highway, to run around 10.70's at 4000. That is a walk in the park as we DID way better than that with a 496 El Camino 12+ yrs ago. And I will keep the highway mileage out of this as people still can't believe the mileage some of our stuff gets.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

67 Nova wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:32 am
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:37 am Agree about the factory 163 intake, it can support a lot of power but it’s not the right choice for my car (given my converter and gear).
Can you please explain your rational behind this comment? In fact, I see the exact opposite with your combo.

I feel that with your combo, gear and converter, this would be better suited as it quite possibly take a little of the off-converter bottom end away, yet from say 3500 on, would work better then the cast, plus less weight on the front end and maybe a big higher RPM? AND if that were the case, then it could be more then possible to switch to a 3.08 gear, flat foot launch, yet quicker acceleration for the 60 ft on?

I compared your final drive of the 350 and 2.56's to what my new car has, 700R4 and 3.73. with the same tire, were within about 75 RPM at 65 MPH. And boy I will certainly have a TONS more issues coming off the line with the first gear of the 700. I know it's far from optimum but it's what there and will try that for a bit.

I'm only looking for a pump gas, daily driver with PW, cruise and AC and can run 10 hrs on the highway, to run around 10.70's at 4000. That is a walk in the park as we DID way better than that with a 496 El Camino 12+ yrs ago. And I will keep the highway mileage out of this as people still can't believe the mileage some of our stuff gets.
Here’s the simple explanation, 60’ is everything, and with the way I run my car, I have to fight from 2000 RPM up to where the engine is most efficient. The RPM will beat the 163 in this area. The 163 is an factory aluminum, rectangle port intake, which is no problem on an oval port head, but again, it’s not going to build as much torque out of the bottom as an RPM. I’m foot to the floor, and can probably tolerate even a little more torque - just not on a track that isn’t prepped. I can’t give up any torque at the moment. If I was looking to soften up the bottom, it would be an option.

A 10.70s street car sounds sweet, keeps posted on the progress.
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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