2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by maxracesoftware »

Dragginwagon406 ,

can "Dragy Software/Hardware" calculate the HP ??
i don't see anyone Post HP from Dragy .... just ET and MPH data .
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

maxracesoftware wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:18 pm Dragginwagon406 ,

can "Dragy Software/Hardware" calculate the HP ??
i don't see anyone Post HP from Dragy .... just ET and MPH data .
Nope, only ET and speed.

https://dragymotorsports.com/
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

maxracesoftware wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 2:18 pm Dragginwagon406 ,

can "Dragy Software/Hardware" calculate the HP ??
i don't see anyone Post HP from Dragy .... just ET and MPH data .
But G-TECH PRO SS does.

https://www.gtechpro.com/G-TECH-Pro%20SS

https://youtu.be/HMQxfII_pPs
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:57 pm
BobbyB wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:50 am
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:50 am

First run was at 11:30 AM, last run at 12:30 PM.

The Draggy gives the DA in the screenshot. Only the last pass was flatfooted.
Very very cool! Have you tested your 60 foot &/or 0 to 60 on the street with your Dragy? Mind sharing?
I tried one time before rebuilding the suspension and boxing the rear arms, but I haven’t tried since. Not representative of what it could do now.

1/8 mile was 2.35, 8.65 @ 88.47.

I won’t run out a 1/4 mile on the street.
So I re-ran my 1/8 mile today on the street, the main differences being:
Better air (43°F vs. 82°F, -560' DA, 3300' DA previously)
Rebuilt transmission
Rebuilt suspension
Stock front springs
(weight about 4200 lbs, about 4100 lbs previously)

Distance/before/after
60'/2.35/2.17
0-60 mph/4.94 /4.50
1/8 mile/8.65/8.24
1/8 mph/88.47/91.10
1/4 mile/?/12.76 (letting off, and on the brakes)
1/4 mph mph/ / 93.83

I'd say the suspension, particularly the front springs, made a huge difference in how quickly I can floorboard the accelerator. You can hear the difference in the videos - once it's planted now, it's planted.
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

Dragginwagon406 wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:50 pm
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:57 pm
BobbyB wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:50 am

Very very cool! Have you tested your 60 foot &/or 0 to 60 on the street with your Dragy? Mind sharing?
I tried one time before rebuilding the suspension and boxing the rear arms, but I haven’t tried since. Not representative of what it could do now.

1/8 mile was 2.35, 8.65 @ 88.47.

I won’t run out a 1/4 mile on the street.
So I re-ran my 1/8 mile today on the street, the main differences being:
Better air (43°F vs. 82°F, -560' DA, 3300' DA previously)
Rebuilt transmission
Rebuilt suspension
Stock front springs
(weight about 4200 lbs, about 4100 lbs previously)

Distance/before/after
60'/2.35/2.17
0-60 mph/4.94 /4.50
1/8 mile/8.65/8.24
1/8 mph/88.47/91.10
1/4 mile/?/12.76 (letting off, and on the brakes)
1/4 mph mph/ / 93.83

I'd say the suspension, particularly the front springs, made a huge difference in how quickly I can floorboard the accelerator. You can hear the difference in the videos - once it's planted now, it's planted.
The video...even sounds much better, tires only briefly voice they're displeasure with the power.

https://youtu.be/WNwsXNb15fs
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by maxracesoftware »

The video...even sounds much better, tires only briefly voice they're displeasure with the power.

https://youtu.be/WNwsXNb15fs
Dragy is pretty accurate again ! :D
DragyET1276.jpg
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

maxracesoftware wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:44 pm
The video...even sounds much better, tires only briefly voice they're displeasure with the power.

https://youtu.be/WNwsXNb15fs
Dragy is pretty accurate again ! :D

DragyET1276.jpg
If I stayed in it, 12.35? Just a guess.

Not bad for 225/70-15 tires on a virgin, semi-gloss blacktop covered street. I have to believe that run would be tough with proper gears on 225/70-15 and matching stall. I’d say that’s reason 100 for 2.56 gears.

Reason 101:
https://youtu.be/aqrs7CzWB_Q
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by 67 Nova »

So, what IS the purpose of running a "stock" converter and 2.56 gear? I get the whole lower RPM thing on the highway, but why not just use a OD trans and more common gear?

I like what Mark is thinking and we have done a few in the past. I do recall talking with Carl "Big Dog" Spiering back in the '90 about things like this. His tow vehicle was a G body El Camino that towed his '64 Nova. Was a oval port 454 with 3.73 and would run 9's with a small plate.

I have been starting to look got a nice parts hauler and the Chevy PU's are just to crazy in pricing. So maybe a El Camino would be the ticket and still tow a open trailer when needed. I was thinking 496/505 maybe 781/215 head or even a 290, dual plane. Do a nice SR with power from say 1800-6800. T400, T400 with GV or 4L80.

Goal is 11.0 or better. MIGHT even go with manifolds.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

67 Nova wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:50 am So, what IS the purpose of running a "stock" converter and 2.56 gear? I get the whole lower RPM thing on the highway, but why not just use a OD trans and more common gear?

I like what Mark is thinking and we have done a few in the past. I do recall talking with Carl "Big Dog" Spiering back in the '90 about things like this. His tow vehicle was a G body El Camino that towed his '64 Nova. Was a oval port 454 with 3.73 and would run 9's with a small plate.

I have been starting to look got a nice parts hauler and the Chevy PU's are just to crazy in pricing. So maybe a El Camino would be the ticket and still tow a open trailer when needed. I was thinking 496/505 maybe 781/215 head or even a 290, dual plane. Do a nice SR with power from say 1800-6800. T400, T400 with GV or 4L80.

Goal is 11.0 or better. MIGHT even go with manifolds.
Transmission and converter are cheap and simple; don’t waste much power.

Deeper gears? Did you notice, I ran 11s on 225/70-15 tires, without spinning, with an engine you could drop in tow truck? The car would be a spinning mess with deeper gear and 3500+ stall converter. My wife could drive it today.
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by BobbyB »

Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:31 pm
67 Nova wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:50 am So, what IS the purpose of running a "stock" converter and 2.56 gear? I get the whole lower RPM thing on the highway, but why not just use a OD trans and more common gear?

I like what Mark is thinking and we have done a few in the past. I do recall talking with Carl "Big Dog" Spiering back in the '90 about things like this. His tow vehicle was a G body El Camino that towed his '64 Nova. Was a oval port 454 with 3.73 and would run 9's with a small plate.

I have been starting to look got a nice parts hauler and the Chevy PU's are just to crazy in pricing. So maybe a El Camino would be the ticket and still tow a open trailer when needed. I was thinking 496/505 maybe 781/215 head or even a 290, dual plane. Do a nice SR with power from say 1800-6800. T400, T400 with GV or 4L80.

Goal is 11.0 or better. MIGHT even go with manifolds.
Transmission and converter are cheap and simple; don’t waste much power.

Deeper gears? Did you notice, I ran 11s on 225/70-15 tires, without spinning, with an engine you could drop in tow truck? The car would be a spinning mess with deeper gear and 3500+ stall converter. My wife could drive it today.
Not to be controversial, & no disrespect intended, but my understanding is that you are limited by your tires ability to push the car forward (tractive limit). This is the product of the torque your engine make at a given rpm, the torque increase through the trans gearing, torque increase through the ring & pinion. Also, of course, the converter increases the engine torque, but I dont have a good understanding of how to figure the increase from one converter to another.

My understanding is, if you only changed your 2.56 to say the 2.73 you have, your 0 to 60 & drag strip times would improve proportionately. I dont think you will necessarily "blow the tires off" because of the change in rear gearing. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. You would of course have higher cruise rpm.

Cool car & cool videos!
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by 67 Nova »

Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:31 pm
67 Nova wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:50 am So, what IS the purpose of running a "stock" converter and 2.56 gear? I get the whole lower RPM thing on the highway, but why not just use a OD trans and more common gear?

I like what Mark is thinking and we have done a few in the past. I do recall talking with Carl "Big Dog" Spiering back in the '90 about things like this. His tow vehicle was a G body El Camino that towed his '64 Nova. Was a oval port 454 with 3.73 and would run 9's with a small plate.

I have been starting to look got a nice parts hauler and the Chevy PU's are just to crazy in pricing. So maybe a El Camino would be the ticket and still tow a open trailer when needed. I was thinking 496/505 maybe 781/215 head or even a 290, dual plane. Do a nice SR with power from say 1800-6800. T400, T400 with GV or 4L80.

Goal is 11.0 or better. MIGHT even go with manifolds.
Transmission and converter are cheap and simple; don’t waste much power.

Deeper gears? Did you notice, I ran 11s on 225/70-15 tires, without spinning, with an engine you could drop in tow truck? The car would be a spinning mess with deeper gear and 3500+ stall converter. My wife could drive it today.
OK who said anything about a 3500 converter? GUESS you missed the part where I said "POWER FROM SAY 1800"! But since you brought it up, what does that stock stall at behind your motor? I recall the "cheapie" stalls back in the '90's were the Vega stall around 3500 behind a SB. I was curious of the rational for your choice of of components?

I fully understand, and UNLIKE YOU, I don't disregards others achievements. It's your car and you should do as you please. You seems to be doing well. I'm happy for ya. Just think about other cars that can fit a better and larger tire. Do I THINK you have hampered your results with the combo, most certainly.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by 1980RS »

67 Nova wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:43 pm
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:31 pm
67 Nova wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:50 am So, what IS the purpose of running a "stock" converter and 2.56 gear? I get the whole lower RPM thing on the highway, but why not just use a OD trans and more common gear?

I like what Mark is thinking and we have done a few in the past. I do recall talking with Carl "Big Dog" Spiering back in the '90 about things like this. His tow vehicle was a G body El Camino that towed his '64 Nova. Was a oval port 454 with 3.73 and would run 9's with a small plate.

I have been starting to look got a nice parts hauler and the Chevy PU's are just to crazy in pricing. So maybe a El Camino would be the ticket and still tow a open trailer when needed. I was thinking 496/505 maybe 781/215 head or even a 290, dual plane. Do a nice SR with power from say 1800-6800. T400, T400 with GV or 4L80.

Goal is 11.0 or better. MIGHT even go with manifolds.
Transmission and converter are cheap and simple; don’t waste much power.

Deeper gears? Did you notice, I ran 11s on 225/70-15 tires, without spinning, with an engine you could drop in tow truck? The car would be a spinning mess with deeper gear and 3500+ stall converter. My wife could drive it today.
OK who said anything about a 3500 converter? GUESS you missed the part where I said "POWER FROM SAY 1800"! But since you brought it up, what does that stock stall at behind your motor? I recall the "cheapie" stalls back in the '90's were the Vega stall around 3500 behind a SB. I was curious of the rational for your choice of of components?

I fully understand, and UNLIKE YOU, I don't disregards others achievements. It's your car and you should do as you please. You seems to be doing well. I'm happy for ya. Just think about other cars that can fit a better and larger tire. Do I THINK you have hampered your results with the combo, most certainly.
LOL, a Vega converter. Last time i used one of those I lost 6mph but the ET was about the same as my 10" TCI so I figured the Vega converter was like a big rubber band that just never locked up. Sure it stalled to 4K but that loss of mph wasn't worth it. He could switch from his 2.56 gears to a 3.08 and not spin a tire as the engine would still need a converter to get the stall speed into the meat of that 496. I know if I had a car running 2.56 gear at the track with a big "torque" engine the first thing I would put in was a higher stall converter, cheapest ET you can buy. I bet that MC is a killer from a 30 mph roll.
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

BobbyB wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 1:52 pm
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:31 pm
67 Nova wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:50 am So, what IS the purpose of running a "stock" converter and 2.56 gear? I get the whole lower RPM thing on the highway, but why not just use a OD trans and more common gear?

I like what Mark is thinking and we have done a few in the past. I do recall talking with Carl "Big Dog" Spiering back in the '90 about things like this. His tow vehicle was a G body El Camino that towed his '64 Nova. Was a oval port 454 with 3.73 and would run 9's with a small plate.

I have been starting to look got a nice parts hauler and the Chevy PU's are just to crazy in pricing. So maybe a El Camino would be the ticket and still tow a open trailer when needed. I was thinking 496/505 maybe 781/215 head or even a 290, dual plane. Do a nice SR with power from say 1800-6800. T400, T400 with GV or 4L80.

Goal is 11.0 or better. MIGHT even go with manifolds.
Transmission and converter are cheap and simple; don’t waste much power.

Deeper gears? Did you notice, I ran 11s on 225/70-15 tires, without spinning, with an engine you could drop in tow truck? The car would be a spinning mess with deeper gear and 3500+ stall converter. My wife could drive it today.
Not to be controversial, & no disrespect intended, but my understanding is that you are limited by your tires ability to push the car forward (tractive limit). This is the product of the torque your engine make at a given rpm, the torque increase through the trans gearing, torque increase through the ring & pinion. Also, of course, the converter increases the engine torque, but I dont have a good understanding of how to figure the increase from one converter to another.

My understanding is, if you only changed your 2.56 to say the 2.73 you have, your 0 to 60 & drag strip times would improve proportionately. I dont think you will necessarily "blow the tires off" because of the change in rear gearing. Somebody correct me if I am wrong. You would of course have higher cruise rpm.

Cool car & cool videos!
2.56 = 3.90 at the stripe
2.73 = 4.15 at the stripe

At my speed (120+) and tire height (let alone converter slippage), I don’t have the engine for more gear. More to the point, the engine which runs out the back door with a deeper gear in second wouldn’t be as friendly tooling around town, and certainly wouldn’t work as well with the stock converter.

I need to do a few more things to the car and we’ll see how it does next year. Projects with the car are on hold until we get back to the warm weather - the car work happens in the driveway.
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by Dragginwagon406 »

67 Nova wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 2:43 pm
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:31 pm
67 Nova wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 7:50 am So, what IS the purpose of running a "stock" converter and 2.56 gear? I get the whole lower RPM thing on the highway, but why not just use a OD trans and more common gear?

I like what Mark is thinking and we have done a few in the past. I do recall talking with Carl "Big Dog" Spiering back in the '90 about things like this. His tow vehicle was a G body El Camino that towed his '64 Nova. Was a oval port 454 with 3.73 and would run 9's with a small plate.

I have been starting to look got a nice parts hauler and the Chevy PU's are just to crazy in pricing. So maybe a El Camino would be the ticket and still tow a open trailer when needed. I was thinking 496/505 maybe 781/215 head or even a 290, dual plane. Do a nice SR with power from say 1800-6800. T400, T400 with GV or 4L80.

Goal is 11.0 or better. MIGHT even go with manifolds.
Transmission and converter are cheap and simple; don’t waste much power.

Deeper gears? Did you notice, I ran 11s on 225/70-15 tires, without spinning, with an engine you could drop in tow truck? The car would be a spinning mess with deeper gear and 3500+ stall converter. My wife could drive it today.
OK who said anything about a 3500 converter? GUESS you missed the part where I said "POWER FROM SAY 1800"! But since you brought it up, what does that stock stall at behind your motor? I recall the "cheapie" stalls back in the '90's were the Vega stall around 3500 behind a SB. I was curious of the rational for your choice of of components?

I fully understand, and UNLIKE YOU, I don't disregards others achievements. It's your car and you should do as you please. You seems to be doing well. I'm happy for ya. Just think about other cars that can fit a better and larger tire. Do I THINK you have hampered your results with the combo, most certainly.
When you asked "So, what IS the purpose of running a "stock" converter and 2.56 gear?", I took that as I should upgrade the converter and gear, even though you didn't specifically mention "converter" in your follow up comment. My apologies.

If I was to purchase a non-stock stall, what should I order (knowing my torque peak is at 4300 rpm)?

In any case, I've driven a car I switched from 2.29 gears to 3.23, and finally to 4.10. Every time I went to a deeper gear, the car tended to spin the tires more (on the street, if not at the track). I can tell you for sure, there's no way I'd have a chance of coming off the line full throttle with more gear, or more converter, and if I'm going to run mid-11s with a tow truck engine (that idles nicely and works well with the stock converter), there is no time to give away by coming off the line at part throttle. Rpm across the stripe in second gear is nearly optimal for this engine power curve. Mark will build more torque everywhere, I'm assuming he'll also maintain more power across the stripe. If my Monte doesn't go 125 with the new engine, I'll be surprised.

A G-body Elco with an oval port 496 running 9's sounds good to me - I'd love a ride.

But that performance is not for my Monte - it's a cruiser, not a race car. My goal is to run 11.50s with an engine which idles as smooth as possible. An engine you truly don't know what it has until you see the slip (or the tail lights). Kind of like my race against that '68 Road Runner with the Hell Cat engine - it idled smooth and with the hood down, you had not idea it would haze the tires through the 60' and take me to Gapple Bees.

1.83 60’, 10.38 @ 136.12 Roadrunner (looked like 275/60-15 ET Streets)
1.91 60’, 11.93 @ 119.46 for the Monte. (225/70-15 Cooper Cobras)

https://youtu.be/Fhl8crCjKKo

1800-6800, that's a huge spread, I'd love to see the dyno sheet.

Sorry, I don't mean to disregard anyone's achievements. Like most guys, I'm a "show me, visual type" guy. I get excited by loud noises and distracted by bright lights. Show me a car running, preferably going down the track, and follow it up with a time slip - I guarantee you'd have my attention.

I most certainly have hampered my track results. I've traded track performance for a car my wife or myself can drive everywhere.

Happy Pearl Harbor Day.
1.87, 11.72 @ 120, 4110 lbs, 2.56 gears, stock stall, 225/70-15 Cooper Cobras
My sleeper video - https://youtu.be/tcOh6gQ_K_E
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Re: 2.56 Gear, Stock Converter, 4100 Pounds, NA 11s?

Post by skinny z »

Question:
First the preface.
I get it. It's obviously sparked a wild fire here a ST (and probably elsewhere). And that in itself is something to keep the combination going. Most definitely a cool piece of machinery.
But...
What about a set of ET Streets like the Hellcat Roadrunner?
A track only thing, although with that goes some of the cache I know. But, a little more grip for the 1st 60', maybe some more gear but not so much as to kill your cruising RPM, and your...
Dragginwagon406 wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 10:32 pm ...goal is to run 11.50s with an engine which idles as smooth as possible. An engine you truly don't know what it has until you see the slip (or the tail lights). Kind of like my race against that '68 Road Runner with the Hell Cat engine - it idled smooth and with the hood down, you had not idea it would haze the tires through the 60' and take me to Gapple Bees.

1.83 60’, 10.38 @ 136.12 Roadrunner (looked like 275/60-15 ET Streets)
1.91 60’, 11.93 @ 119.46 for the Monte. (225/70-15 Cooper Cobras)

This whole thing makes me rethink the approach to the cammed 502 BBC in the 86 TA. With a TKO 500 and a 3.73 rear gear, it makes for a difficult day at the track. No matter how much you peddle it.
Kind of makes me want to try the start in 2nd gear. Hmm...
Kevin
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