Nitro Top Fuel Dragster Peak HP simulations

[maxracesoftware]

Nitro Top Fuel Dragster Peak HP simulations

Looking for better + newer OnBoard Data Logger Graphs + Run Data that anyone might have Links to ????

this is the best Data + Graph i've been able to find so far .... has a lot of 'noise' in Graphs on GForce lines

this Graph is best matchup to the Top Fuel Record Run i have in my records ,
its 11154 Peak HP .... however, the latest ET/MPH , especially the highest MPH's ive seen so far
are above my 331.61 MPH @ 1000 FT ... so its possible with an acceleration rate that gives you 336 to 338 MPH @ 1000 Feet
may be closer to 12,000 Peak HP as they are now claiming .
 

TopFuelDragsterRecordRun_GForce_Dip_near_1second.jpg

TopFuelDragsterRecordRun_5GForce_225_to_250seconds.jpg

TopFuelDragsterRecordRun_11154PeakHP.jpg

TopFuelDragsterRecordRun_1000Feet.jpg

 

[hoodeng]

Wasn't there testing done with strain gauges a few years ago?? Their results were over the 10k hp mark which was considered reasonably on the mark then. Your results would then be more in line with what could be achieved to today.

What would the dyno look like that could possibly read such a wile engine?!

[maxracesoftware]

Wasn't there testing done with strain gauges a few years ago?? Their results were over the 10k hp mark which was considered reasonably on the mark then. Your results would then be more in line with what could be achieved to today.

What would the dyno look like that could possibly read such a wile engine?!

Yes ... thats where i got the Data Graph from .... comes from AVL's Torque Sensor results
showed 11,051 Peak HP in Race Engine Technology article of Top Fuel Dragster's Peak HP using an AVL designed Torque Sensor .

YouTube Video :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrsPfXIFzSA

Looking for more OnBoard Data Logger Graphs + hard Data if possible
to double-check against my Software results

they are now claiming 12,000 Peak HP + closer to 6 G's ... the 6 G's still around 2.250 seconds or so down the Strip .

https://youtu.be/NrsPfXIFzSA?t=272 ... shows 11,051 Peak HP in their last Test session

[Stan Weiss]

Larry,
How do you account for the fact that a few years ago they changed the headers angle an picked up speed? It fact NHRA then set a limit on what the header angle has to be.

Stan

[hoodeng]

Found it, RET Nov 15 issue.

Was flicking through the back issues, and found RET Jul 13 issue had the full story of the DSR engine that was the basis of the later testing.

Stan, the header angle went from what degrees, to what degrees now?

Will we ever see another fuel engine configuration like the old McGEE introduced? or will it remain lock step for the extended future?

[Stan Weiss]

Found it, RET Nov 15 issue.

Was flicking through the back issues, and found RET Jul 13 issue had the full story of the DSR engine that was the basis of the later testing.

Stan, the header angle went from what degrees, to what degrees now?

Will we ever see another fuel engine configuration like the old McGEE introduced? or will it remain lock step for the extended future?

I don't know what they were, or how much they changed them. But they did go farther then the rule let them run now. This is from the 2020 NHRA rule book.

Double-pipe insulated exhaust headers mandatory. Minimum
Funny Car header angle 40 degrees, measured in reference
to ground and parallel to the center line of the car (X axis).
Maximum width of headers: 83 inches. Maximum header height
11.5 inches, measured from the ground to the highest point at
the exit of the exhaust. Maximum header pipe O.D. 2.75 inches.
O.D. and I.D. must remain constant beginning 8 inches below
the header flange to the exit of the header. Centerlines of all
four exhaust pipes must be parallel to each other and each pipe
must contact adjacent tube.

Stan

[maxracesoftware]

Larry,
How do you account for the fact that a few years ago they changed the headers angle an picked up speed?
In fact NHRA then set a limit on what the header angle has to be.

Stan

i split up the Header Thrust Angle effects into 2 parts :
1= the Horsepower increase is already contained in the ET Slip Data , Feet incrementals + 660 Ft and 1000 Ft MPH's

2= the Downforce Lbs are included into equations for Drive-Tire's Rolling Resistance
so that its not just "pure" Rolling Resistance HP losses you see in that column ,
but instead , includes Front Wing and Rear Wing and Header Downforce,
.... this is also true for all other Vehicles that have no Header Downforces, but do have Wings
_________________________________________________________________

more info :
5 Choices of DragStrip Lengths :
"660 Ft • 1/8th Mile • with 660 Ft MPH"

"1000 Ft • 660 Ft MPH • no 1000 Ft MPH" ... 660ft MPH , but no 1000ft MPH ...for all other Vehicles , except ,
Nitro Top Fuel Dragsters and Funny Cars

"1000 Ft • Nitro Dragster • Nitro FunnyCar" ... with both 660ft and 1000 ft MPH inputs ....only for Nitro Top Fuel Dragsters and Funny Cars
this choice also "turns on" special Top Fuel Clutch equations

"1320 Ft • 1/4 Mile • 660 and 1320 MPH" ... this choice is the "Default" typical 1/4 mile DragStrip
with both 660ft and 1320ft MPH inputs

"1320 Ft • no MPH • all Feet incrementals "... no MPH inputs whatsoever ... you can use this choice
that will automatically calculate all the incremental MPH for you, useful if you have missing MPH on ET Slip
this choice will also "smooth out" a Run for you , will smooth HP Curve somewhat too

"1320 Ft • 990Ft ET • 660MPH • 1320MPH" .... this choice for DragStrips that use 990Ft ET instead of 1000Ft ET
_____________________________

4 Choices of DragStrip Length displayed distances Data
1=660 FT
2=1000 FT
3=1320 FT
4=1600 FT (1608 Ft )

for example , you might be at a 1/8 Mile only DragStrip
but you are curious to see what your Race Car would Run if it were on a 1/4 Mile 1320 FT DragStrip
so would chose choice #3 ... it would display all Data up to 1320 Ft

another example , you have a Top Fuel Dragster that now runs under 1000 Feet Rules
and you want to see how fast it might Run at 1320 Feet under old Rules ... you can do this now .

note every choice above is being calculated to 1608 Feet distance behind the scenes in Code ,
but you chose what you want to see .

[rdwedge]

maxracesoftware » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:14 pm

Stan Weiss wrote: ↑Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:46 pm
Larry,
How do you account for the fact that a few years ago they changed the headers angle an picked up speed?
In fact NHRA then set a limit on what the header angle has to be.

Stan
i split up the Header Thrust Angle effects into 2 parts :
1= the Horsepower increase is already contained in the ET Slip Data , Feet incrementals + 660 Ft and 1000 Ft MPH's

2= the Downforce Lbs are included into equations for Drive-Tire's Rolling Resistance
so that its not just "pure" Rolling Resistance HP losses you see in that column ,
but instead , includes Front Wing and Rear Wing and Header Downforce,
.... this is also true for all other Vehicles that have no Header Downforces, but do have Wings

I always thought someone should make a 'Thrust Stand' for there dyno stand to see what kind of thrust you could get out of different headers.
I designed and built a linear thrust stand for the Air Force back in the '90s. It was two linear bearing rails, spring loaded for the amount of thrust,
shock absorbers, linear tensiometer.( small version of a jet engine thrust stand). I remember Larry M. saying one time he had to chock his dyno
to keep it from walking.

Dwight Fox (foxchassis)

[hoodeng]

If they are picking up considerable down force i would expect the roll out to change, but by how much? I expect the teams know how much and adjust gearing to suit.

[RAS]

The McGee and Schubeck Fuel engines were brilliant but not very serviceable between rounds. The McGee brothers and Kenny Bernstein / Dale Armstrong tried this deal for quite a while. I don't know if anyone can determine peak anything with a fuel engine. The fuel delivery system is so sensitive to (traction) engine load. It is NOT a constant. It is a 1000' variable. Fuel cars are speed limited by rear gear, tire dia. and traction. They run at almost hydraulic lock now so I'm not to sure about pump size being a limit. I remember when they all ran a 13 gallon pump. They burned up constantly. Lean. There were no Mags that could fire a bigger load of fuel or plugs for that matter. Without those twin 50 amp mags there's nothing.

[maxracesoftware]

If they are picking up considerable down force i would expect the roll out to change, but by how much? I expect the teams know how much and adjust gearing to suit.

there's no Transmission so to speak of , just a Clutch and a reverser
the NHRA Rules state only a 3.20:1 rear gear ratio

I remember Larry M. saying one time he had to chock his dyno
to keep it from walking.

Dwight Fox (foxchassis)

yes , i had to chock the Dyno's Engine Stand a few times to prevent the Engine Stand from heading towards my SF901 Console's Window

that was surprising the 1st time it happened
that Engine was 700+cid with Sonny's BBC Hemi style Heads
even though it was all aluminum engine , it weighed very much, as a complete unit w/ Engine Stand weight included,
and i had to strain somewhat to push the Engine Stand + Engine into the Dyno Room... i'd say at least 60+ lbs of force ??
i'll test it accurately one Day

[hoodeng]

there's no Transmission so to speak of , just a Clutch and a reverser
the NHRA Rules state only a 3.20:1 rear gear ratio

Yes i understand that, i was heading down the path of the rollout changes effect on RPM @ the lift off point.

Cheers.

[RAS]

The one variable that is forever changing is the tire diameter and contact patch. The fuel flow meter is really important. It's never wrong! Balancing the clutch cannon timers and traction is key. With a forever changing track to boot.