Engine builder / Machinist

[C.A.R.E.]

One of my employees was showing a new customer the heavy metal rod nuts I had made for the Model A engine. He made the remark that I should have been a Machinist rather then an Engine Builder. I replied, “To be an Engine Builder you HAVE to be a Machinist, other wise your just an Engine Assembler” How many of you agree!
Remember your only limited by your machinery and your imagination!

[In-Tech]

I know some incredible machinists so I don't claim to be one although I can make some chips on the mill and curls off the lathe, lol. You gotta love it when people look at stuff and ask where did you buy that?... mutha cracka, I MADE that

[rebelrouser]

I do not claim to be a machinist, I tell everyone who asks that I am a mechanic who has a couple machines. So I have a mill, lathe, seat and guide machine, valve and seat grinder, crankshaft polisher, rod heater, etc. etc. I don't bore blocks, or turn cranks, I mainly do the cylinder heads, while the block is sent out. And I assemble engines, I also have a flow bench and engine dyno.

I do some restoration work between engines. working on a 49 Olds, chop top. The owner could not find parking light housings, he had the lenses as they are glass and don't rot like plastic lenses. So I made a pair to replace them. Used two freeze plugs and a little work on the mill and lathe. Doesn't sound complicated but it actually took a little doing. I also made an adapter to put the original 49 Olds steering wheel on a 80's GM tilt column.

[hoffman900]

I think it depends. I know more than a few that can bore things out, refinish surfaces, etc. then I only know a couple that can carve art out of blocks of metal (one did custom float bowls for SU carbs - he had pages of trig he worked out before hand before cutting it) and have no interest in engine assembly. They're a dying breed and I think of them as strictly machinists, but they're more like old school prototype machinists.

So there are definitely different tiers if one wanted to get into it. At the end of the day though, they're all just labels.

However, I never understood the British usage of engineer to describe both degreed engineers and technicians. The latter, imo, are not engineers even if they are called that.

[BillK]

I think there are a couple of "tiers" ?

I know of more that one machine shop that do not assemble engines at all and would probably have a hard time doing it properly. They can do all of the machine work absolutely perfectly but that is as far as it goes.

I also know a few excellent engine "builders" who do not own a single machine. They have all of the measuring tools and can put a great engine together but they don't have and don't want to have anything to do with the machine work.

I would call an engine "assembler" somebody who works in a production line type environment and simply assembles parts that have already been measured.

[hoffman900]

I think there are a couple of "tiers" ?

I know of more that one machine shop that do not assemble engines at all and would probably have a hard time doing it properly. They can do all of the machine work absolutely perfectly but that is as far as it goes.

I also know a few excellent engine "builders" who do not own a single machine. They have all of the measuring tools and can put a great engine together but they don't have and don't want to have anything to do with the machine work.

I would call an engine "assembler" somebody who works in a production line type environment and simply assembles parts that have already been measured.

I think from a business perspective, you kind of have to think about what it is you do. Trying to be both probably means you're not making as much money as you could by picking one or the other and streamlining operations.

[In-Tech]

Off topic, have you noticed good engine builders/designers are also incredible "cooks"? I've traveled all over doing tuning and the better the engine combination, it seems to go with the food

[rebelrouser]

Well I guess a related question is what is the difference between a mechanic and a technician? Looking at the dictionary. When I was teaching at the tech school the big thing was that, I was no longer training mechanics, but technicians.

A mechanic is defined as
1. a person who repairs machinery.
2. a worker skilled in the use of tools and equipment.

A technician is defined as
1. a person skilled in mechanical or industrial techniques or in a particular technical field
2. a person employed in a laboratory, technical college, or scientific establishment to do practical work
3. a person having specific artistic or mechanical skill, esp if lacking original flair or genius

A machinist
1. a person who operates machinery, esp. an operator of machine tools.
2. a person who makes or repairs machines.
3. a warrant officer who assists the engineering officer in the engine room.

[David Redszus]

In many production machine shops, a machinist is the guy who operates some complex
metal forming machine. His primary function is to insert raw parts and remove finished parts.
And make sure the parts are in spec.

But then there is the set-up man who does the actual machine set-up and fixturing.
Once the parts are running within spec, he steps aside and the machine operator takes over.
Only a few are qualified to set up a complex machine so it runs properly.

And then there is the tool and die maker who makes one of a kind parts all day long.
And when the expensive machine breaks down, he is tasked with repair or manufacture
of the needed parts...in a big rush...and often with no drawings or samples to go by.
Only a broken part that is sometimes unrecognizable as to its function and purpose.

Guess which guys make the big bucks. And how long it takes to learn the required skill sets.

I once knew a currency engraver. He said it took 35 years to learn the trade and then
you go blind.

[leahymtsps]

If you do a search on the subject, this was beaten to death when Carl was on
here and usually ended up causing a big argument.

Tom

[hoodeng]

The Tiers comment is appropriate here, also the scale of the operation undertaken. In a fair sized engine repair facility you don't need or want guys with multiple skill sets of hand fitting and machinists capability, you need guys that are effective in the area they are working, the guy running the crank grinding area or bore/hone section don't have to know how to replicate his compatriot, they have to know every trap their own area can throw up.
Conversely the guys in the assembly area have to know how to produce a reliable turn key product, this guy does not need to be aware of the idiosyncrasies of bore material compositions or grain structure of cranks. Although with enough time around these skills will pick up knowledge of this.
As the operation gets smaller, the skill sets of the employees will broaden, the guy on cranks will now be sizing rods and servicing blocks for example, the head guy is now boring and honing.

We get down to smaller operations, the knowledge base spreads wider, also the possibility of now only working on one or a couple of brands which fall into the scope of the operation, also the fit out of the shop may become more limited and the use of outside providers for specialist work now becomes a necessity. The growth of smaller operations is usually bought about by the time hold ups of bigger providers and also the case of product not being performed to the satisfaction of that shop, hence the purchase of new machining capability's.

Now for the one two man operation, here we will possibly see an even broader skill set where the line of demarcation of machinist and fettler are blurred to the point its the same man. In my experience it has been a guy from a engine machinist [less often fitter and machinist] background that morphs into the builder, his experience with metals composition, heat treatment, production journey, machine finishing, etc makes him look at a job quite differently to a pure engine builder.

There are a number of guys out there with no formal training in any area of machine construction and assembly, that can achieve quite stellar results and learn on the run faster than most, these are a rarity in the broader field of reco/performance work. Typically a machine shop will hire a guy with specific skill sets to the task they want performed, some find themselves in a position where training up someone has no option. People interested in this area are becoming a rarity, in my area i see no new faces emerging, it does not offer the highest monetary reward for responsibility taken but give a satisfaction to those so engaged.

[C.A.R.E.]

When I posted the original post I was referring to the required ability and machinery to solve the problems you run into “building “ engines on the performance level. Yes, you can send the problem out for the required machining and be at the mercy of that persons ability and time frame. So much better to be able to do it in house. And I still have a hard time classifying a person who buys the parts, has some outside source machine them he assembles it and someone else dyno it, an “engine builder” ! Sounds more like an “engine assembler” to me. A large shop can have multiple people working and specializing on Different aspects or parts of an engine and all done in house but I call them “machinist”. Now the person that over sees the large shop ( example Nascar ) make the decisions and dictates the corrective modifications I can call an “ engine builder”.

[KnightEngines]

I'm a machinist.
And an engine builder.
And a head porter.
And a welder & fabricator.
And a half way to decent tuner (& improving)
And shop foreman, and quoting guy, and phone guy, and parts guy and maintenance guy.

I have to be, was a 1 man shop for 16 years, now there are 2 off us but I still do everything.

But I was a machinist 1st, everything else stemmed from that.

[C.A.R.E.]

Knight engines. I know want your talking about !
When I was racing NHRA Comp I came back from a race and one of the local racers ask how I did ? I told him I’m glad I’m the car owner, engine builder, driver, truck driver, and crew chief because I would have fired some SOB !

[David Redszus]

Knight engines. I know want your talking about !
When I was racing NHRA Comp I came back from a race and one of the local racers ask how I did ? I told him I’m glad I’m the car owner, engine builder, driver, truck driver, and crew chief because I would have fired some SOB !

How would you define the following?

driver
race engineer
racer
engine designer
fuel chemist