Question About Sleeving A Block

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davidbraley
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Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by davidbraley »

I am new to the engine machining world. But, I do come to the table as a 45+ year precision machinist/toolmaker. My interest in rebuilding engines is for nothing more than my own personal enjoyment.

I've been searching this amazing resource, and didn't find a clear answer to my question.

Is it a crazy idea to use a torque plate when boring a cylinder for a new sleeve? The torque plate would remain in place when pressing the sleeve into the block. It's my understanding most engine machinists do not do this.

If it helps, the block in question is a 1965 General Motors 292 inline 6 cylinder. I need to install 6 sleeves to save the block. This engine will be restored to it's original stock specs. Still, I would like to use better, more modern materials and parts, and do a better job at the machining and attention to detail compared to the original factory work. I think you call this "Blue Printing" the engine.

This is what I have gathered and learned from reading here on the Speed-Talk forum:

When sleeving all cylinders in a block, it's best to use the thinner 1/16" wall iron sleeves, keep the interference press fit to between 0.0005" and 0.001" (this helps with keeping block distortion to a minimum), and use an anarobic sleeve retainer like Loctite 640. The Loctite 640 is a slow dry, high shear strength, high temperature anaerobic adhesive.

I plan to align hone the crankshaft mains when finished with installing the sleeves.

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

David
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by lefty o »

im not a machinist, nor did i sleep at a holiday inn last night, but to me it absolutely makes perfect sense to use a torque plate while boring for the sleeve. why not have the block stressed as it will be when it has heads on it for both boring for the sleeve, and final bore of the new cyl wall.
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by C.A.R.E. »

If you use this approach you will have to install the sleeves with the plate install. With that much metal removed around each bore when you remove the plate the bore for the sleeve will be very out of round. I can’t see any advantage to go to this much trouble. If you sonic test one of these blocks, you’ll see they are not very thick.
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by Schurkey »

Sounds to me like you need to scrap that block, and find a different one.

I would not choose to sleeve all six holes unless there were a compelling reason to flush that much time, money, effort, and enthusiasm into the block you have.

One or two sleeves...fine. All six? No, thanks.
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by benno318 »

i fit plenty of sleeves, but certainly wouldnt call myself an expert compared to the gents here.

if i am fitting a sleeve as a repair to a bore in an otherwise good running engine, i shoot for 1 thou interference to keep bore distortion on the cylinder/s next to the sleeve to a bare minimum.

if i am fitting a sleeve prior to overboring all cylinders, then i aim for 2.5 to 3 thou interference, more crush makes for a nicer job IMO and these jobs are damn near impossible to see by eye, both on the deck and in the lower part of the bore, that there is actually a sleeve fitted.

either way, i always leave a step at the base of the bore. i personally use a bit of green loctite at the base of the cylinder and i smear a bit at the top of the sleeve so it will draw some into the top portion of the block as its pressed in. plus any extra smeared at a hole/crack if present.

i certainly wouldnt use your torque plate until after you have fitted all your sleeves, then use it as you would during a normal bore and hone.

hope this helps
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by modok »

The hole in head gasket is not large enough, and the hole in the torque plate probably is not large enough either for the same reason, although of course it could be if you make it so.


I have no objections if you want to make your own special torque plates, I see no risk but I would not expect any worthwhile benefit at all.
If you want to be a perfectionist then find a better block. Two piece cylinder can never be as rigid as one piece and no machining procedure is going to make up for that.
But don't worry about it anyway, IMO, this engine should not need torque plate to get good ring seal but of course it does not hurt.
The design is very conservative compared to other engines that the cylinder distortion should be very mild, it just does not seem like a priority. Tho..... that big hole where the water pump goes is a little suspicious..... You might find something if you start looking, but I doubt it will be what you expect.
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by SupStk »

As mentioned a torque plate would have to be made since most of them are a little over the largest commonly available overbore. The idea of pre-stressing the block while sleeving is good but little impractical.

I have issues with boring and sleeving all the cylinders. The mains receive much of their support from the parent material in the cylinder walls. The more power you build, the more critical this becomes. Even using "glue" like loctite to supply extra grip would be a poor substitute for extra cylinder thickness, in my opinion. Then there is the potential problem of heat transfer through the glue from the sleeve to block/water jacket.
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by MotionMachine »

I've done this on 2 different motors for different reasons, but like everyone else I see no reason to do it on a 292. I've put all 6 or all 8 sleeves in many cast blocks to save them without issue. If using a 1/16" wall sleeve, I would use .002" press though and if liquid nitrogen is available those sleeves will just drop in.
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by ClassAct »

I have sleeved and re-sleeved hundreds and hundred of holes. There is no reason to use a torque plate or anything else. The sleeves are not that round anyway. I never used .062 wall sleeves either, unless I had no choice. Once the sleeve is installed you want some wall thickness because you have to bore the sleeve. Also, I almost never went by the sleeve the chart suggested. Unless the lock is chronically thin I chose a sleeve that was within .020-.030 of the final bore size I needed. If I wanted a finish the bore of 4.000 then I would pick a sleeve with the ID 3.970-3.980. This would leave the thickest sleeve you can get.
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by davidbraley »

Thanks so much guys for the replies! I really appreciate it.

I will definitely keep my eyes open for a second block. These things are getting scarce (around here anyway). It took me almost three years to find the engine I'm working with now. I was disappointed to see the condition this motor was in when I opened it up.

If I do decide to sleeve all 6 cylinders, it sounds like I can still do a good job on this without using a torque plate to bore the sleeve holes. Modok brings up a good point of needing a second torque plate with larger bore holes. I will still use a regular size torque plate when I final hone the cylinders to size.

David
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by David Redszus »

How severe is the bore distortion? How round are the sleeves?

If we were to measure the block with and without a torque plate for
ovality and taper distortion, we could determine the problems we face.

An old time engine tutor of mine would copper plate the sleeves to provide
a lubricant to assist insertion during an interference fit. And to
improve thermal conductivity.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a junk block for practice?
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by PackardV8 »

Figuring a minimum of $100 per hole for sleeves, you can't find a core block for $600? If you can wait a bit, guarantee we could get you one.

BTW, there are variations on the 292"' what year is your application?
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by davidbraley »

David Redszus,

It would be nice to practice on a junk block! That copper plating idea is interesting. I actually do some copper plating here in my workshop. I'm wondering if I could forgo the sleeve retaining adhesive with the copper plating instead. I imagine then I could warm up the block to 200 or so degrees and cool the sleeves to help installation. I'll do some thermal calculations and see if they might even just drop in.

PackardV8,

I am doing all of the machine work myself. The block has a date code of Feb 4th, 1965. This engine will be for a 1953 GMC 2-Ton truck project I'm working on, and being strictly all original is not important to me. The engine that came in this truck was a 248 GMC inline 6. You of all people can appreciate the trouble finding parts for the older engines. Because this truck will see cross country trips, I decided to use an engine that you can still find parts for.

David
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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by PackardV8 »

Hi, David,

We've got a 292" core you can have for $350 plus shipping.

I talked over your conversion with my partner and we agreed we would just go with a 350" SBC; same money, better fuel economy and half again more power.

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Re: Question About Sleeving A Block

Post by davidbraley »

PackardV8 wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:30 pm Hi, David,

We've got a 292" core you can have for $350 plus shipping.

I talked over your conversion with my partner and we agreed we would just go with a 350" SBC; same money, better fuel economy and half again more power.

jack vines
Jack,

That is a very generous offer. Maybe I should just go with an even more modern V8 like the 350 SBC you mention. I've got a 454 from a 1977 suburban here that might also fit. In the end, moving to a V8 would make driving this rather large truck more fun for sure. Especially over the mountain passes...

Thanks to all for your ideas Gentlemen! Much appreciated.
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