HV oil pump/too much oil on top Q

[Belgian1979]

Hi Guys,

I'm evaluating a couple of things on an engine of mine which always had oil consumption. I'm going to at least get the heads done as I believe the valve guides are too loose (which is odd as these heads were all new Dart pro 1 aluminum 215 heads which came assembled from the factory and the engine maybe has about 4000 miles on it, anyway...).

I'm not fully convinced this will sort out my problem, so I may even need to dig into it deeper. But before I do that, I would like to get a view on the following:
https://www.airflowresearch.com/195cc-s ... nder-head/

AFR seems to say that when using a HV pump and a high pressure spring, which I have (HV because I use an oil cooler and some fairly long lines and high pressure because of the 7500 rpm red line on this engine), can cause oil consumption because it would submerge the valves stems and seals fully in oil. Is this a real possibility? If so would using a std spring (if so which one) be a solution? If not what other options are there?

[dannobee]

Restrict the oil to the top end.

https://www.moroso.com/oil-restrictor-kit22010/

And you likely don't need a HV oil pump. Millions of small blocks had oil coolers from the factory and used a STD oil pump and worked just fine.

[RDY4WAR]

That is plausible. It wouldn't likely be the cause of a leak, but if there is one existing, submerging it in oil can make it worse.

I agree with an oil restrictor and also agree with no need for a high volume pump nor the high pressure spring. The stock pump works plenty well at your rpm. Pretty much by the time you actually need to go high volume, you're probably ready to go dry sump anyway.

[Belgian1979]

Understand that, but isn't it so that the amount of oil say pushed through an orifice would depend largely on the pressure (not volume of the pump) which is determined by the spring. The major contributor would then be high oil pressure and not so much the HV pump itself?
Just trying to figure things out here.

FWIW, I also run shaft rockers (T&D). Not sure if these spray more oil onto the valve/spring assembly than normal.
found this on T&D rockers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4SO73Xu13c

I would not expect this much oil. At around 10 sec, you can almost see the oil sitting half way up the valve covers.


What about using restrictor type pushrods? I would rather not reduce oil to my lifters (roller lifters) as the car is run on the street.

[rebelyell]

OP
? Is the above problem Head the same problem Head you're working on in your Current & other thread about a problem Head?

Same engine as well ?
this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64559

[Belgian1979]

OP
? Is the above problem Head the same problem Head you're working on in your Current & other thread about a problem Head?

Same engine as well ?
this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=64559

No different engine. The one I talk about now is the one in the car. Long story on the block I'm assembling.

[Belgian1979]

Anyway, a couple of vids about a blowby test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_RwzCk ... YvesThaens
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKdlG9A ... YvesThaens
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqXwFAI ... YvesThaens
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7sdKTC ... YvesThaens

Trying to assess if I need to do something with the engine in the car as well.

I might put the engine I have on the stand in the car while I rebuild the HP unit that's in the car now.

[BOOT]

What about using restrictor type pushrods? I would rather not reduce oil to my lifters (roller lifters) as the car is run on the street.

I agree, read on here people using rollpins for pushrod restrictors. Still I'd prefer to improve drainback before restricting.

[Belgian1979]

What about using restrictor type pushrods? I would rather not reduce oil to my lifters (roller lifters) as the car is run on the street.

I agree, read on here people using rollpins for pushrod restrictors. Still I'd prefer to improve drainback before restricting.

Yes, agree on the improving of the drainback, but then again, all the oil can still pool around the valves.

[Belgian1979]

BTW, how much blow-by at idle is acceptable. I measured it with an gasflow device I use to measure the gasflow on my welder and it has about 0.45-0.50 cfm at idle.

[Walter R. Malik]

Be absolutely sure that the intake rocker studs have sealant on the threads going into the head.

[Belgian1979]

Be absolutely sure that the intake rocker studs have sealant on the threads going into the head.

I redid those a while back because yes, there was blue silicone on them and that didn't hold up, but I used a loctite thread sealant.

[Alaskaracer]

Understand that, but isn't it so that the amount of oil say pushed through an orifice would depend largely on the pressure (not volume of the pump) which is determined by the spring. The major contributor would then be high oil pressure and not so much the HV pump itself?
Just trying to figure things out here.

Pressure is NOT determined by the spring. Pressure is simply nothing more than a measure of restriction to flow....the higher the restriction, the higher the pressure to overcome it. Also, if flow is increased, and the restriction is not changed, you'll see a pressure increase from the increase of flow... The spring is a RELIEF....when the pressure after the pump gets high enough, the spring will open and not allow the pressure to climb above it's set point. One thing to note.....Pumps DO NOT CREATE PRESSURE...Period!!! They only create flow. The restriction to that flow is what creates the pressure.....

[fabr]

Understand that, but isn't it so that the amount of oil say pushed through an orifice would depend largely on the pressure (not volume of the pump) which is determined by the spring. The major contributor would then be high oil pressure and not so much the HV pump itself?
Just trying to figure things out here.

Pressure is NOT determined by the spring. Pressure is simply nothing more than a measure of restriction to flow....the higher the restriction, the higher the pressure to overcome it. Also, if flow is increased, and the restriction is not changed, you'll see a pressure increase from the increase of flow... The spring is a RELIEF....when the pressure after the pump gets high enough, the spring will open and not allow the pressure to climb above it's set point. One thing to note.....Pumps DO NOT CREATE PRESSURE...Period!!! They only create flow. The restriction to that flow is what creates the pressure.....

100% Agree. The relief bypass spring is what determines max pressure allowed.Without that bypass most engines would make a lot more pressure.It is that restriction to flow that determines max pressure that can be developed. If the viscosity of the fluid being pumped drops low enough the bypass and all the other restrictions may not allow the standard pump to flow enough oil to maintain a minimum desired pressure though.At that point either the viscosity needs maintained somehow or a higher volume pump is needed at that point.

[Belgian1979]

Understand that, but isn't it so that the amount of oil say pushed through an orifice would depend largely on the pressure (not volume of the pump) which is determined by the spring. The major contributor would then be high oil pressure and not so much the HV pump itself?
Just trying to figure things out here.

Pressure is NOT determined by the spring. Pressure is simply nothing more than a measure of restriction to flow....the higher the restriction, the higher the pressure to overcome it. Also, if flow is increased, and the restriction is not changed, you'll see a pressure increase from the increase of flow... The spring is a RELIEF....when the pressure after the pump gets high enough, the spring will open and not allow the pressure to climb above it's set point. One thing to note.....Pumps DO NOT CREATE PRESSURE...Period!!! They only create flow. The restriction to that flow is what creates the pressure.....

These are positive pumps, not like a water pump.

If the pump puts out a fixed volume depending on rpm and it is only limited by the spring which bypasses excess volume (which it is), the fact remains that what goes in must come out. If you consider the engine to be a fixed orifice as a whole, when you have more restriction your bypassed volume in the pump goes up. If you have less restriction, your bypass reduces.
As such if you have a restriction and the pressure P1 from the pump is higher, the pressure what remains after the restriction (P2) will equally be higher in the same amount (the pressure reduction will be the same as the restriction itself has not changed). As the volume of a fluid cannot change, the speed by which is passes through the engine has to increase.
As such I'm starting to doubt that oil limiting pushrods might work. A reduction in pressure by changing the spring would be more effective.
Using a std volume pump would evidently also reduce the volume, but it would only reduce the bypassed volume as I would have to assume there would be enough spare capacity to build pressure.