Valve Stem Tip Height

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earlymopar
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by earlymopar »

PRH wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:30 am With the 59* lifter bank angle, and how it meets up with the pushrods, it creates a situation where a change in the pushrod seat height in the lifter can have an impact on where the pushrod is in relation to the tunnel in the head.

From the factory those engines came with solid lifters.
The factory style solid lifters have the pushrod seat .250” lower in the body than the hydraulic lifters.

So, if you’re running either a hyd lifter or an edm style solid lifter, those will move the pushrods in the direction that’s towards the exhaust side of the head(compared to the stock style solid lifter).

How far the adjuster screw protrudes from the bottom of the rocker can also impact where the pushrod sits in the tunnel.
Correct. This is something I was already planning to check this morning. I'm using Howard's "EDM" solid lifters and am going to compare their height to the original OEM "dumbell" lifters as any differences in height will change the rocker angle on the valve stem. Agreed also on the adjuster screw.

One correction is most all of these engines came with solid lifters but, a (very) few came from the factory with hydraulic camshafts & lifters.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by PRH »

I'm using Howard's "EDM" solid lifters and am going to compare their height to the original OEM "dumbell" lifters as any differences in height will change the rocker angle on the valve stem.
This is not correct.
With a shaft mounted rocker, the relationship between the rocker and the valve tip is unaffected by anything that’s happening on the pushrod side of the rocker.

The difference in pushrod seat height between a “normal” Mopar solid lifter and the edm(AMC) lifter is about .150-.160”......... with the edm lifter being higher.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by earlymopar »

PRH wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:28 pm
I'm using Howard's "EDM" solid lifters and am going to compare their height to the original OEM "dumbell" lifters as any differences in height will change the rocker angle on the valve stem.
This is not correct.
With a shaft mounted rocker, the relationship between the rocker and the valve tip is unaffected by anything that’s happening on the pushrod side of the rocker.

The difference in pushrod seat height between a “normal” Mopar solid lifter and the edm(AMC) lifter is about .150-.160”......... with the edm lifter being higher.
Correct. I mis-stated the above and didn't really think about it until I took measurements just now and then looked at part relationships. Below is what I have found on my set up:

Valve Stem Heights (using depth micrometer)

OEM = 1.800 to 1.830"
Pro-Flo = 1.902 to 1.907 across all (I'm roughly .070" to.100" taller than OEM)

Lifters (Cam wear contact surface to ball seat using a 5/16" diameter ball and height gage):

OEM = 1.311"
EDM = 1.490"
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by BillK »

earlymopar wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:43 pm OEM = 1.800 to 1.830"
Pro-Flo = 1.902 to 1.907 across all (I'm roughly .070" to.100" taller than OEM)
So that is probably the reason for the pushrod hitting. If you open the valve .100 does the pushrod clear ? The rocker geometry is not really correct either.

Not sure how you can really fix it properly other than get the correct length valves. No rocker stands to shim up :(
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by earlymopar »

BillK wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 9:12 pm
earlymopar wrote: Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:43 pm OEM = 1.800 to 1.830"
Pro-Flo = 1.902 to 1.907 across all (I'm roughly .070" to.100" taller than OEM)
So that is probably the reason for the pushrod hitting. If you open the valve .100 does the pushrod clear ? The rocker geometry is not really correct either.

Not sure how you can really fix it properly other than get the correct length valves. No rocker stands to shim up :(
Yes, the pushrod barely contacts the clearance hole and only when the valve is fully closed. Any amount of lift off of the seat allows clearance. I'm just going to open the top of the hole with a tapered reamer.

I'm not clear what you see that says the rocker geometry is incorrect. Please clarify if you would.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by earlymopar »

The .100" valve tip height increase equates to less than 4 degrees of rocker angle change and negligible change to the contact area location on the valve tip.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by ClassAct »

earlymopar wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:36 am The .100" valve tip height increase equates to less than 4 degrees of rocker angle change and negligible change to the contact area location on the valve tip.


You are wrong. You have three relationships that determine geometry. The height of the valve stem, the position of the shaft and the amount of lift. There is four if you are adding a roller tip to the rocker but you didn’t do that so we won’t consider it here.

When Chrysler established the position of the shafts relative to the height of the valve stem and the amount of lift, they did al the math and put them where they did because it was correct for that stem height and lift.

You can not alter any part of that three part equation and not change the geometry. It doesn’t matter what name is on the valve cover, if it has shaft rockers it’s all the same.

What you have done is added .100 to the stem length. That is MASSIVE. You MUST correct the placement of the shafts to correct the geometry. That is the ONLY fix.

Plus, I’m going to ASSume you are running more lift than stock, so that affects your geometry as well.

In your case, the shafts have to go UP and AWAY from the valves. You can’t just raise the shafts, because it will run the rockers into the springs.

There are only two ways to do this IF you have shafts that sit in a saddle. The Poly doesn’t have that so you have only one way to correct geometry.

If you have saddles, you can call Mike at B3 Racing Engines and give him some numbers and he will machines up a set of spacers that raise the shafts and move the shafts away from the valves. You have to elongate the holes in the shafts so the bolts don’t stop the shafts from moving away from the valves.

The other way is to mill the stands down and machine or buy a set of blocks and and adjust the shaft height with the thickness of the blocks. You will have to do it this way because the Poly head doesn’t have saddles.

You will need to make or buy some blocks and move the shafts up and away from the valves. How far up and away I can’t say. You have to do some math to figure it out. You also have the issue head bolts going through the stands you already have so you’ll need to deal with that.

In my opinion your best, cheapest option is to call Mike at B3 Racing Engines and talk to him about how to address moving the shafts on a Poly head. I’d bet everything I have that he already has a system developed to allow you to move the shafts and keep the head bolt holes where they go.

There is no other way to fix this than relocating the shafts.

And as I said, if you add a roller wheel to the rocker that also affects geometry.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by PackardV8 »

ClassAct wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:10 pmYou are wrong. You have three relationships that determine geometry. The height of the valve stem, the position of the shaft and the amount of lift.
Agree, a .100" increase in stem height does make a difference. Ford FEs with shaft rockers are especially sensitive to stem height.

A factor which complicates the equation is if the camshaft is a performance regrind. Adding lift/duration always requires reducing the base by the amount the lift is increased. This positions the lifter further down in the hole, in effect making the pushrod that much shorter. Hydraulic lifters usually have sufficient travel to accommodate this, but the additional .100" of stem height is still there.

Did the customer bring you this problem, or did you source the longer valves?
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by ClassAct »

PackardV8 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:00 pm
ClassAct wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:10 pmYou are wrong. You have three relationships that determine geometry. The height of the valve stem, the position of the shaft and the amount of lift.
Agree, a .100" increase in stem height does make a difference. Ford FEs with shaft rockers are especially sensitive to stem height.

A factor which complicates the equation is if the camshaft is a performance regrind. Adding lift/duration always requires reducing the base by the amount the lift is increased. This positions the lifter further down in the hole, in effect making the pushrod that much shorter. Hydraulic lifters usually have sufficient travel to accommodate this, but the additional .100" of stem height is still there.

Did the customer bring you this problem, or did you source the longer valves?

Yeah, the FE Ford is another example of a shaft system. It’s the same thing with those engines too. You have to correct the geometry when making changes to any part of that three (or four part if you add a roller tip to the rocker) equation.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by PRH »

Be tough to move the shaft in one direction to help correct the geometry on one side of the head...... without adversely afftecting the other side.

It’s a poly engine.......so the single shaft is between the two rows of valves.
772CA9F1-ECF8-479E-98E2-02C645B6E6E9.png
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by PackardV8 »

The rocker angle has slightly changed because the tips have been reground.
The pushrod length has effectively changed because the cam has been reground and the rocker tips have been reground.
The valve stem height is .100" longer.
Not stated, but most likely, the heads and block have been resurfaced, lessening the distance from the cam centerline to pushrod rocker seat.

At this point, looking for a black cat in a dark room, I'd start by bluing the valve tips and verifying the sweep pattern.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by earlymopar »

PackardV8 wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:00 pm
ClassAct wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:10 pmYou are wrong. You have three relationships that determine geometry. The height of the valve stem, the position of the shaft and the amount of lift.
Agree, a .100" increase in stem height does make a difference. Ford FEs with shaft rockers are especially sensitive to stem height.

A factor which complicates the equation is if the camshaft is a performance regrind. Adding lift/duration always requires reducing the base by the amount the lift is increased. This positions the lifter further down in the hole, in effect making the pushrod that much shorter. Hydraulic lifters usually have sufficient travel to accommodate this, but the additional .100" of stem height is still there.

Did the customer bring you this problem, or did you source the longer valves?
Jack, et al. Sorry that my earlier comment was not clear. I was only speaking to the rocker angle change at rest or with a fully closed valve. I am very well aware of all of the other factors that influence rocker arm rotation beyond a fully closed valve. The Pro-Flo valves are what I requested.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by ClassAct »

PRH wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:34 pm Be tough to move the shaft in one direction to help correct the geometry on one side of the head...... without adversely afftecting the other side.

It’s a poly engine.......so the single shaft is between the two rows of valves.

772CA9F1-ECF8-479E-98E2-02C645B6E6E9.png
Damn I forgot about the opposed rockers. I haven’t seen a Poly head since probably 1996 or so. While the head had/has potential that shaft system will kill it every time.

I have no suggestion on how to correct that, short of engineering something that gets each rocker on its own shaft. In my opinion that casting has far too many other issues to make it worth doing all that work.
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Re: Valve Stem Tip Height

Post by BCjohnny »

If you're absolutely wedded to the valves, and the don't have separate hardened tips, you need to get some length out of them

You've several alignment issues but you need to first re-establish the relationship between the stem end and the shafts, which IMO is the most critical, and deal with the other things after

I'd be looking at what retainers and collets are available to move the installed height of the spring down away from the tip allowing you to get the length out of the valve ...... yeah you'll have to address the lesser installed height or get shorter springs if you've already set that, but you've got to start somewhere

As the engine already has shafts you can get the rocker pad reasonably closer to the retainer / collets than if they were stud mounted rockers

With the right parts you might be able to get enough, or all of, the length out needed ...... or buy new valves

And then mock it all back up again and see where you are

JMO
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