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128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

General engine tech -- Drag Racing to Circle Track

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ClassAct
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by ClassAct »

juuhanaa wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:36 pm
skinny z wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:02 pm
juuhanaa wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 2:53 pm hmmmm


307 601.png
12:1 is outside of the operating parameters of the 128 rule.
LSA will widen according to the 128 rule and on which TM is based.
Do the same specs with 10.5:1 and post up.
307 601 10.5CR.png


I reduced CR to 10.5 and i did the calculus based on my new input Peak Power RPM which match the previous DCR. Now the program output 108 LCA, but its also 108hp down :D

I like all the parameters for 12CR. I dont know is it doable using 305 iron heads, flat top pistons and .43lift roller cam with 196int duration at 050 inch lift.
I started playing with TM yesterday and I’m a bit disappointed. For one, you can only test on SBC and SBF stuff. Not even BBC. And like I said, on pump gas up to 12:1 I don’t open the LSA a up on an in-line wedge head. You just kill power below peak torque and I hate that.
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by skinny z »

ClassAct wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:08 am

If you are willing to learn to tune (we never stop learning do we??) you can easily get a “tight” LSA very driveable.
I think it's important to think in terms of overlap rather than LSA.
We know that the same LSA number could be very different in terms of EVC and IVO.
And I agree 100% with the carb tuning.
This is why I'm comfortable with 72 degrees of seat to seat overlap whereas I know of those that found it unfriendly on the street. That was 288/294 on a 110 (106 ICL).
Kevin
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by CamKing »

skinny z wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:38 am
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:03 am 355" SBC
10:1 with ported 492 heads, Performer RPM, and Holley 600.

RPM---TQ--BHP
3200--436--266
3400--443--287
3600--445--305
3800--444--321
4000--443--337
4200--440--352
4400--440--368
4600--441--386
4800--441--403
5000--432--411
5200--422--418
5400--412--423
5600--400--426

The cam is 216/220, on a 112 LSA, and 108 ICL
Your lobes Mike ( I would think yes)?
Which ones?
Yes. It's one of my HR cams.
.510"/.510" Valve Lift
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by CamKing »

Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:04 am
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:03 am 355" SBC
10:1 with ported 492 heads, Performer RPM, and Holley 600.

RPM---TQ--BHP
3200--436--266
3400--443--287
3600--445--305
3800--444--321
4000--443--337
4200--440--352
4400--440--368
4600--441--386
4800--441--403
5000--432--411
5200--422--418
5400--412--423
5600--400--426

The cam is 216/220, on a 112 LSA, and 108 ICL
Its almost like the right engine build, with a good induction package will dictate power curve characteristics more so than what lsa you have.
LSA is something you end up with. It's not a parameter you design for.
If you learned about engines, working on double overhead cam engines, you wouldn't even know what LSA is.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by skinny z »

CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:25 am
Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:04 am
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:03 am 355" SBC
10:1 with ported 492 heads, Performer RPM, and Holley 600.

RPM---TQ--BHP
3200--436--266
3400--443--287
3600--445--305
3800--444--321
4000--443--337
4200--440--352
4400--440--368
4600--441--386
4800--441--403
5000--432--411
5200--422--418
5400--412--423
5600--400--426

The cam is 216/220, on a 112 LSA, and 108 ICL
Its almost like the right engine build, with a good induction package will dictate power curve characteristics more so than what lsa you have.
LSA is something you end up with. It's not a parameter you design for.
If you learned about engines, working on double overhead cam engines, you wouldn't even know what LSA is.
What's your take on overlap then? Is that a consideration at the forefront? That's in our typical pushrod V8.
Kevin
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Stan Weiss »

ClassAct wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:11 am
juuhanaa wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:36 pm
skinny z wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:02 pm

12:1 is outside of the operating parameters of the 128 rule.
LSA will widen according to the 128 rule and on which TM is based.
Do the same specs with 10.5:1 and post up.
307 601 10.5CR.png


I reduced CR to 10.5 and i did the calculus based on my new input Peak Power RPM which match the previous DCR. Now the program output 108 LCA, but its also 108hp down :D

I like all the parameters for 12CR. I dont know is it doable using 305 iron heads, flat top pistons and .43lift roller cam with 196int duration at 050 inch lift.
I started playing with TM yesterday and I’m a bit disappointed. For one, you can only test on SBC and SBF stuff. Not even BBC. And like I said, on pump gas up to 12:1 I don’t open the LSA a up on an in-line wedge head. You just kill power below peak torque and I hate that.
Tim,
BBC HRT should work. I am hoping any day now David has the time to look at and give BBC SRT the final OK so I can release that.

Stan
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Orr89rocz »

CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:25 am
Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:04 am
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:03 am 355" SBC
10:1 with ported 492 heads, Performer RPM, and Holley 600.

RPM---TQ--BHP
3200--436--266
3400--443--287
3600--445--305
3800--444--321
4000--443--337
4200--440--352
4400--440--368
4600--441--386
4800--441--403
5000--432--411
5200--422--418
5400--412--423
5600--400--426

The cam is 216/220, on a 112 LSA, and 108 ICL
Its almost like the right engine build, with a good induction package will dictate power curve characteristics more so than what lsa you have.
LSA is something you end up with. It's not a parameter you design for.
If you learned about engines, working on double overhead cam engines, you wouldn't even know what LSA is.
Exactly. Obviously other parameters are more important than just focusing on lsa. Like koenigsegg freevalve engine, doesnt have a cam lol
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by CamKing »

skinny z wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:35 am What's your take on overlap then? Is that a consideration at the forefront? That's in our typical pushrod V8.
Overlap is the distance between the intake opening point, and the exhaust closing point.
The intake opening point is important.
The Exhaust closing point is important.
Overlap is just a result of those 2 important points.
How the engine reacts during that overlap period is really more reliant on when the exhaust opens and closes, and when the intake opens(in regards to the piston position). then on the total degrees of overlap.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:46 am
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:25 am
Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:04 am

Its almost like the right engine build, with a good induction package will dictate power curve characteristics more so than what lsa you have.
LSA is something you end up with. It's not a parameter you design for.
If you learned about engines, working on double overhead cam engines, you wouldn't even know what LSA is.
Exactly. Obviously other parameters are more important than just focusing on lsa. Like koenigsegg freevalve engine, doesnt have a cam lol
So,. on that free valce engine when it is free valving along doing its thing, what is the point of max valve lift?
How does that change as the engine accelerates through the rpm range @WOT? What do the free valves want to do ?
What happens (differently) if when it is free valveing along running at part throttle through various throttle settings and engine accelerations?
Any different points of max valve lift than say at WOT.

How else does the valves want to move (when and how much) "valve motion lift curve".
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:18 am
skinny z wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:38 am
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:03 am 355" SBC
10:1 with ported 492 heads, Performer RPM, and Holley 600.

RPM---TQ--BHP
3200--436--266
3400--443--287
3600--445--305
3800--444--321
4000--443--337
4200--440--352
4400--440--368
4600--441--386
4800--441--403
5000--432--411
5200--422--418
5400--412--423
5600--400--426

The cam is 216/220, on a 112 LSA, and 108 ICL
Your lobes Mike ( I would think yes)?
Which ones?
Yes. It's one of my HR cams.
.510"/.510" Valve Lift

This whole "EHR Series" of hydraulic Roller cam lobes look to me to be very usefull for a guy doing a high perf street engine build. There is a lot there to work from.
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by skinny z »

F-BIRD'88 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:07 pm This whole "EHR Series" of hydraulic Roller cam lobes look to me to be very usefull for a guy doing a high perf street engine build. There is a lot there to work from.
Yep. There's a good chunk of that listing in my sim programs.
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by Orr89rocz »

F-BIRD'88 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:59 am
Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:46 am
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:25 am
LSA is something you end up with. It's not a parameter you design for.
If you learned about engines, working on double overhead cam engines, you wouldn't even know what LSA is.
Exactly. Obviously other parameters are more important than just focusing on lsa. Like koenigsegg freevalve engine, doesnt have a cam lol
So,. on that free valce engine when it is free valving along doing its thing, what is the point of max valve lift?
How does that change as the engine accelerates through the rpm range @WOT? What do the free valves want to do ?
What happens (differently) if when it is free valveing along running at part throttle through various throttle settings and engine accelerations?
Any different points of max valve lift than say at WOT.

How else does the valves want to move (when and how much) "valve motion lift curve".
You can watch some of Koenigsegg explanations but my understanding is its basically full control by the software and pneumatic actuators. Opening closing and lift of each valve is controlled. Any point desired. For each rpm and load of the engine, there is an optimal valve motion curve. This is trying to optimize each possible condition with a unique valve lift and area curve. Within limitations of controller response im sure
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by juuhanaa »

ClassAct wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:11 am
juuhanaa wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:36 pm
skinny z wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:02 pm

12:1 is outside of the operating parameters of the 128 rule.
LSA will widen according to the 128 rule and on which TM is based.
Do the same specs with 10.5:1 and post up.
307 601 10.5CR.png


I reduced CR to 10.5 and i did the calculus based on my new input Peak Power RPM which match the previous DCR. Now the program output 108 LCA, but its also 108hp down :D

I like all the parameters for 12CR. I dont know is it doable using 305 iron heads, flat top pistons and .43lift roller cam with 196int duration at 050 inch lift.
I started playing with TM yesterday and I’m a bit disappointed. For one, you can only test on SBC and SBF stuff. Not even BBC. And like I said, on pump gas up to 12:1 I don’t open the LSA a up on an in-line wedge head. You just kill power below peak torque and I hate that.
Do you see something why the engine above would not perform as the TM predicts?
A balanced person dares to stagger, and modify ports bigger
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by ClassAct »

CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:25 am
Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:04 am
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:03 am 355" SBC
10:1 with ported 492 heads, Performer RPM, and Holley 600.

RPM---TQ--BHP
3200--436--266
3400--443--287
3600--445--305
3800--444--321
4000--443--337
4200--440--352
4400--440--368
4600--441--386
4800--441--403
5000--432--411
5200--422--418
5400--412--423
5600--400--426

The cam is 216/220, on a 112 LSA, and 108 ICL
Its almost like the right engine build, with a good induction package will dictate power curve characteristics more so than what lsa you have.
LSA is something you end up with. It's not a parameter you design for.
If you learned about engines, working on double overhead cam engines, you wouldn't even know what LSA is.
I get that. You can’t do that with a V8 cam.
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Re: 128 my take, anybody see it like this ?

Post by juuhanaa »

ClassAct wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:01 pm
CamKing wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:25 am
Orr89rocz wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 11:04 am

Its almost like the right engine build, with a good induction package will dictate power curve characteristics more so than what lsa you have.
LSA is something you end up with. It's not a parameter you design for.
If you learned about engines, working on double overhead cam engines, you wouldn't even know what LSA is.
I get that. You can’t do that with a V8 cam.
Do what? :D
A balanced person dares to stagger, and modify ports bigger
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