Bill's SBF build advice
Moderator: Team
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
Thanks guys, this is exactly the kind of info we need so please keep it coming. It looks like if he's gonna spend the money
on block prep he should go ahead and do a 347 to get the best bang for the buck. Is there a rod to cam clearance issue like
on a SBC? Doe's scat make a 7/16 bolt stroker rod or limited to 3/8 bolts? I've heard 347's pull the pistons too far out of the
bottom of the cyl resulting in rapid wear. Has there been a fix for this? Longer than stock rods and pistons with oil ring supports?
Should we be looking for a internal balance crank kit or is external OK on a SBF? Also we can get one of the old torquer
manifolds with the cockeyed carb flange pretty cheap, are these ok on a ford? Trying to keep everything under a stock hood.
on block prep he should go ahead and do a 347 to get the best bang for the buck. Is there a rod to cam clearance issue like
on a SBC? Doe's scat make a 7/16 bolt stroker rod or limited to 3/8 bolts? I've heard 347's pull the pistons too far out of the
bottom of the cyl resulting in rapid wear. Has there been a fix for this? Longer than stock rods and pistons with oil ring supports?
Should we be looking for a internal balance crank kit or is external OK on a SBF? Also we can get one of the old torquer
manifolds with the cockeyed carb flange pretty cheap, are these ok on a ford? Trying to keep everything under a stock hood.
-
- Pro
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:20 am
- Location: US
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
No rod to cam clearance issues, I clearance the side that could hit though a little. You run a 5.4 long rod instead of the factory 302 rod length. It takes just a bit of clearance work, at the bottom of cylinders, but it's not a big deal. Back in the day when those first came out, they had issues consuming oil because they didn't use a steel support rail on the piston for the oil rings. It would suck oil in from that area. That's been long since addressed and is no longer an issue. I'd bet, almost as many 347's have been built at this point compared to 383 sbc's, they're well worked out. You don't need 7/16 bolts for this thing either. I like the Scat 4340 I beam rods that have a 3/8 cap screw for these. As long as you're not targeting 550+hp and or 7000+ rpm, those rods are perfectly fine.madmooney wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:58 pm Thanks guys, this is exactly the kind of info we need so please keep it coming. It looks like if he's gonna spend the money
on block prep he should go ahead and do a 347 to get the best bang for the buck. Is there a rod to cam clearance issue like
on a SBC? Doe's scat make a 7/16 bolt stroker rod or limited to 3/8 bolts? I've heard 347's pull the pistons too far out of the
bottom of the cyl resulting in rapid wear. Has there been a fix for this? Longer than stock rods and pistons with oil ring supports?
Should we be looking for a internal balance crank kit or is external OK on a SBF? Also we can get one of the old torquer
manifolds with the cockeyed carb flange pretty cheap, are these ok on a ford? Trying to keep everything under a stock hood.
Maximum power using simple logic and common sense
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
Thanks Bigchief thats very helpful. It's starting to look like a scat rotating assy with flat tops and a 0 deck. Looking at the
street ported 185 AFR's and maybe consulting Mr Jones for a camshaft. Also need to check into that factory roller conversion.
If anyone has any further thoughts on intakes, heads, cams, or any other 347 tips or tricks all info is 3 times welcome.
And thanks again all!
street ported 185 AFR's and maybe consulting Mr Jones for a camshaft. Also need to check into that factory roller conversion.
If anyone has any further thoughts on intakes, heads, cams, or any other 347 tips or tricks all info is 3 times welcome.
And thanks again all!
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
Unless someone's already been in the car other than the engine/tranny, Falcon 6s had narrow 4-bolt wheels and hubs, light duty rear ends and drum brakes. Is this going to be a downtown-driver or is it possible he will want to occasionally go around a corner smartly, as well? LOTS of opportunity in the chassis as well as the powertrain.
-
- Guru
- Posts: 6353
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 am
- Location: Roseville, Michigan (just north of Detroit)
- Contact:
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
It is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:49 am One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Specialty engine building at its finest.
-
- Pro
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:20 am
- Location: US
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
Sure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 amIt is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:49 am One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters.
Maximum power using simple logic and common sense
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
Small base circle cores, worn out spiders and investment cast dog bones... No thank you.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 amSure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 amIt is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:49 am One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters.
"Quality" is like buying oats. You can pay a fair price for it and get some good quality oats,
or you can get it a hell of a lot cheaper, when it's already been through the horse.
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Ed Curtis - www.FlowTechInduction.com
or you can get it a hell of a lot cheaper, when it's already been through the horse.
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Ed Curtis - www.FlowTechInduction.com
-
- Guru
- Posts: 6353
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 am
- Location: Roseville, Michigan (just north of Detroit)
- Contact:
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
Nobody is being argumentative ... simply saying it like it is.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 amSure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 amIt is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:49 am One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters.
Considering labor and needing a special small base circle camshaft for spider tray and matching components, it does not cost more to use tie-bar lifters.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Specialty engine building at its finest.
-
- Pro
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:28 pm
- Location: Tallahassee Florida USofA
-
- Pro
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:20 am
- Location: US
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
I will then, lol, you're buying a cam anyhow, that eliminates that variable, and it's drilling and tapping 2 holes, pretty simple. It is cheaper for a budget deal.Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:18 pmNobody is being argumentative ... simply saying it like it is.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 amSure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
Considering labor and needing a special small base circle camshaft for spider tray and matching components, it does not cost more to use tie-bar lifters.
Maximum power using simple logic and common sense
-
- Pro
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:20 am
- Location: US
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
They work just fine and last 100's of thousands of miles. For a mild deal, they work fine.EDC wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:19 pmSmall base circle cores, worn out spiders and investment cast dog bones... No thank you.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 amSure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
Maximum power using simple logic and common sense
-
- Guru
- Posts: 6353
- Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:15 am
- Location: Roseville, Michigan (just north of Detroit)
- Contact:
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
I am guessing your lifters, spider and dog bones are free ...?Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:26 amI will then, lol, you're buying a cam anyhow, that eliminates that variable, and it's drilling and tapping 2 holes, pretty simple. It is cheaper for a budget deal.Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:18 pmNobody is being argumentative ... simply saying it like it is.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 am
Sure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
Considering labor and needing a special small base circle camshaft for spider tray and matching components, it does not cost more to use tie-bar lifters.
http://www.rmcompetition.com
Specialty engine building at its finest.
Specialty engine building at its finest.
-
- Pro
- Posts: 449
- Joined: Tue Aug 09, 2022 9:20 am
- Location: US
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
Pretty much. Amazon has Ford Racing stock style hydraulic roller lifters for $124.95. Competition Products has aftermarket oe style performance lifters for $112.95, Or Comp Cams performance oe style for $239, or Howard's performance oe style for $219. The cheapest tie bar style is $429, so, it's considerably cheaper. Team that up with Elgin #1836p, or 1018p for $220, that's a pretty good deal. For less than just the cheapest set of tie bar lifters, you can have your cam and lifters, and comp Cams dog bone/spider kit. Pretty good deal. And for a 450hp street engine, it's perfectly fine, and works wellWalter R. Malik wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:11 pmI am guessing your lifters, spider and dog bones are free ...?Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:26 amI will then, lol, you're buying a cam anyhow, that eliminates that variable, and it's drilling and tapping 2 holes, pretty simple. It is cheaper for a budget deal.Walter R. Malik wrote: ↑Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:18 pm
Nobody is being argumentative ... simply saying it like it is.
Considering labor and needing a special small base circle camshaft for spider tray and matching components, it does not cost more to use tie-bar lifters.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Maximum power using simple logic and common sense
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
How do you propose he would fit any kind of header with a Cleveland head in a 63 or 64 falcon engine bay? I have a 65 mustang and a convertible 64 falcon Futura project waiting in the wings. The falcon engine bay is more narrow believe it or not.Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:31 pm Scat 9000 crank, I beam rods and KB Hypereutectics would be fine for this deal. As far as the block, You would have to install ARP main bolts, tq to spec, and measure housing bores vs doing the same with the stock bolts. I'd bet money it's different, and out of spec. Plent of guys have just installed girdles and ARP hardware on stock blocks, and it ran just fine. Is it the correct way, no. If you are bringing it to a machine shop anyhow, why wouldn't you just do it right. Line hone, with studs, $200, BHJ sq deck to "zero" $200, bore and tq plate hone .030, $300. Prices may vary depending on shop and location, but you're talking plus or minus $50 for each operation. If he's working "long" hours, he should certainly have an extra $600-$700 for this deal. And I PROMISE you, it will run DRAMATICLEY better, last longer and make more power. I am a chevy guy, but I think one of the coolest engines is a 347 302 based ford. Honestly, I would like to build a 363 Dart block based "302" and make it a Clevor with factory 4v Cleveland heads and put it in my 73 Camaro. Believe it or not, I've made 862hp with factory Cleveland 4v heads naturally aspirated. I think they are bad to the bone. You could do a "fake" boss 302 too. I had one come in 5-6 years ago, that had been made a Boss 302 "clone". They used 2v heads, and I can't remember the brand, but some dual plane aftermarket aluminum intake that fit that combo. The guy I did it for was a car builder who was working on the car, the owner had no clue what he had. I said, it's a Boss 302?!! the Car builder said, Oh, it is? I'm a chevy guy, is that good? I was like cool. Until I started looking at it, that's what it was, I made it a 347, and it rocked for what it was. Went into a 68 Mustang. I should mention, to install the cleveland heads on a windsor block, takes a bit of modification, but it's not overly complicated.
Re: Bill's SBF build advice
450?Bigchief632 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:09 pm Pretty much. Amazon has Ford Racing stock style hydraulic roller lifters for $124.95. Competition Products has aftermarket oe style performance lifters for $112.95, Or Comp Cams performance oe style for $239, or Howard's performance oe style for $219. The cheapest tie bar style is $429, so, it's considerably cheaper. Team that up with Elgin #1836p, or 1018p for $220, that's a pretty good deal. For less than just the cheapest set of tie bar lifters, you can have your cam and lifters, and comp Cams dog bone/spider kit. Pretty good deal. And for a 450hp street engine, it's perfectly fine, and works well
Thanks for the laugh...
Obviously, you haven't clue.
"Quality" is like buying oats. You can pay a fair price for it and get some good quality oats,
or you can get it a hell of a lot cheaper, when it's already been through the horse.
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Ed Curtis - www.FlowTechInduction.com
or you can get it a hell of a lot cheaper, when it's already been through the horse.
Nil Satis Nisi Optimum
Ed Curtis - www.FlowTechInduction.com