Bill's SBF build advice

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madmooney
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by madmooney »

Thanks guys, this is exactly the kind of info we need so please keep it coming. It looks like if he's gonna spend the money
on block prep he should go ahead and do a 347 to get the best bang for the buck. Is there a rod to cam clearance issue like
on a SBC? Doe's scat make a 7/16 bolt stroker rod or limited to 3/8 bolts? I've heard 347's pull the pistons too far out of the
bottom of the cyl resulting in rapid wear. Has there been a fix for this? Longer than stock rods and pistons with oil ring supports?
Should we be looking for a internal balance crank kit or is external OK on a SBF? Also we can get one of the old torquer
manifolds with the cockeyed carb flange pretty cheap, are these ok on a ford? Trying to keep everything under a stock hood.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by Bigchief632 »

madmooney wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 4:58 pm Thanks guys, this is exactly the kind of info we need so please keep it coming. It looks like if he's gonna spend the money
on block prep he should go ahead and do a 347 to get the best bang for the buck. Is there a rod to cam clearance issue like
on a SBC? Doe's scat make a 7/16 bolt stroker rod or limited to 3/8 bolts? I've heard 347's pull the pistons too far out of the
bottom of the cyl resulting in rapid wear. Has there been a fix for this? Longer than stock rods and pistons with oil ring supports?
Should we be looking for a internal balance crank kit or is external OK on a SBF? Also we can get one of the old torquer
manifolds with the cockeyed carb flange pretty cheap, are these ok on a ford? Trying to keep everything under a stock hood.
No rod to cam clearance issues, I clearance the side that could hit though a little. You run a 5.4 long rod instead of the factory 302 rod length. It takes just a bit of clearance work, at the bottom of cylinders, but it's not a big deal. Back in the day when those first came out, they had issues consuming oil because they didn't use a steel support rail on the piston for the oil rings. It would suck oil in from that area. That's been long since addressed and is no longer an issue. I'd bet, almost as many 347's have been built at this point compared to 383 sbc's, they're well worked out. You don't need 7/16 bolts for this thing either. I like the Scat 4340 I beam rods that have a 3/8 cap screw for these. As long as you're not targeting 550+hp and or 7000+ rpm, those rods are perfectly fine.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by madmooney »

Thanks Bigchief thats very helpful. It's starting to look like a scat rotating assy with flat tops and a 0 deck. Looking at the
street ported 185 AFR's and maybe consulting Mr Jones for a camshaft. Also need to check into that factory roller conversion.
If anyone has any further thoughts on intakes, heads, cams, or any other 347 tips or tricks all info is 3 times welcome.
And thanks again all!
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by jsgarage »

Unless someone's already been in the car other than the engine/tranny, Falcon 6s had narrow 4-bolt wheels and hubs, light duty rear ends and drum brakes. Is this going to be a downtown-driver or is it possible he will want to occasionally go around a corner smartly, as well? LOTS of opportunity in the chassis as well as the powertrain.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by Walter R. Malik »

Bigchief632 wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:49 am One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters.
It is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by Bigchief632 »

Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 am
Bigchief632 wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:49 am One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters.
It is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.
Sure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by EDC »

Bigchief632 wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 am
Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 am
Bigchief632 wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:49 am One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters.
It is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.
Sure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
Small base circle cores, worn out spiders and investment cast dog bones... No thank you.
"Quality" is like buying oats. You can pay a fair price for it and get some good quality oats,
or you can get it a hell of a lot cheaper, when it's already been through the horse.

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by Walter R. Malik »

Bigchief632 wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 am
Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 am
Bigchief632 wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 7:49 am One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters.
It is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.
Sure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
Nobody is being argumentative ... simply saying it like it is.
Considering labor and needing a special small base circle camshaft for spider tray and matching components, it does not cost more to use tie-bar lifters.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by allencr267 »

madmooney wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 6:45 pm So what are the pros and cons of the stroker kits? Hyper vs forged? Scat 9000 vs forged?
Internal vs external balance? Longer than stock rods? I-beam vs H-beam? ... So many questions. Please treat us like we're little dumb kids and not 60 years old.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by Bigchief632 »

Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:18 pm
Bigchief632 wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 am
Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 am

It is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.
Sure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
Nobody is being argumentative ... simply saying it like it is.
Considering labor and needing a special small base circle camshaft for spider tray and matching components, it does not cost more to use tie-bar lifters.
I will then, lol, you're buying a cam anyhow, that eliminates that variable, and it's drilling and tapping 2 holes, pretty simple. It is cheaper for a budget deal.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by Bigchief632 »

EDC wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:19 pm
Bigchief632 wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 am
Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:07 am

It is far easier to simply use tie-bar lifters.
Sure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
Small base circle cores, worn out spiders and investment cast dog bones... No thank you.
They work just fine and last 100's of thousands of miles. For a mild deal, they work fine.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by Walter R. Malik »

Bigchief632 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:26 am
Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:18 pm
Bigchief632 wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:36 am

Sure, if it's in the budget, but it's several hundred cheaper with the spider and stock style lifters. The op in the beginning sounded like it was a budget deal, but doesn't seem to be now. But, do you guys just always have to say the opposite just to be argumentative? Lol.
Nobody is being argumentative ... simply saying it like it is.
Considering labor and needing a special small base circle camshaft for spider tray and matching components, it does not cost more to use tie-bar lifters.
I will then, lol, you're buying a cam anyhow, that eliminates that variable, and it's drilling and tapping 2 holes, pretty simple. It is cheaper for a budget deal.
I am guessing your lifters, spider and dog bones are free ...?
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by Bigchief632 »

Walter R. Malik wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 12:11 pm
Bigchief632 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 8:26 am
Walter R. Malik wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 11:18 pm

Nobody is being argumentative ... simply saying it like it is.
Considering labor and needing a special small base circle camshaft for spider tray and matching components, it does not cost more to use tie-bar lifters.
I will then, lol, you're buying a cam anyhow, that eliminates that variable, and it's drilling and tapping 2 holes, pretty simple. It is cheaper for a budget deal.
I am guessing your lifters, spider and dog bones are free ...?
Pretty much. Amazon has Ford Racing stock style hydraulic roller lifters for $124.95. Competition Products has aftermarket oe style performance lifters for $112.95, Or Comp Cams performance oe style for $239, or Howard's performance oe style for $219. The cheapest tie bar style is $429, so, it's considerably cheaper. Team that up with Elgin #1836p, or 1018p for $220, that's a pretty good deal. For less than just the cheapest set of tie bar lifters, you can have your cam and lifters, and comp Cams dog bone/spider kit. Pretty good deal. And for a 450hp street engine, it's perfectly fine, and works well
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

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Bigchief632 wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 2:31 pm Scat 9000 crank, I beam rods and KB Hypereutectics would be fine for this deal. As far as the block, You would have to install ARP main bolts, tq to spec, and measure housing bores vs doing the same with the stock bolts. I'd bet money it's different, and out of spec. Plent of guys have just installed girdles and ARP hardware on stock blocks, and it ran just fine. Is it the correct way, no. If you are bringing it to a machine shop anyhow, why wouldn't you just do it right. Line hone, with studs, $200, BHJ sq deck to "zero" $200, bore and tq plate hone .030, $300. Prices may vary depending on shop and location, but you're talking plus or minus $50 for each operation. If he's working "long" hours, he should certainly have an extra $600-$700 for this deal. And I PROMISE you, it will run DRAMATICLEY better, last longer and make more power. I am a chevy guy, but I think one of the coolest engines is a 347 302 based ford. Honestly, I would like to build a 363 Dart block based "302" and make it a Clevor with factory 4v Cleveland heads and put it in my 73 Camaro. Believe it or not, I've made 862hp with factory Cleveland 4v heads naturally aspirated. I think they are bad to the bone. You could do a "fake" boss 302 too. I had one come in 5-6 years ago, that had been made a Boss 302 "clone". They used 2v heads, and I can't remember the brand, but some dual plane aftermarket aluminum intake that fit that combo. The guy I did it for was a car builder who was working on the car, the owner had no clue what he had. I said, it's a Boss 302?!! the Car builder said, Oh, it is? I'm a chevy guy, is that good? I was like cool. Until I started looking at it, that's what it was, I made it a 347, and it rocked for what it was. Went into a 68 Mustang. I should mention, to install the cleveland heads on a windsor block, takes a bit of modification, but it's not overly complicated.
How do you propose he would fit any kind of header with a Cleveland head in a 63 or 64 falcon engine bay? I have a 65 mustang and a convertible 64 falcon Futura project waiting in the wings. The falcon engine bay is more narrow believe it or not.
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Re: Bill's SBF build advice

Post by EDC »

Bigchief632 wrote: Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:09 pm Pretty much. Amazon has Ford Racing stock style hydraulic roller lifters for $124.95. Competition Products has aftermarket oe style performance lifters for $112.95, Or Comp Cams performance oe style for $239, or Howard's performance oe style for $219. The cheapest tie bar style is $429, so, it's considerably cheaper. Team that up with Elgin #1836p, or 1018p for $220, that's a pretty good deal. For less than just the cheapest set of tie bar lifters, you can have your cam and lifters, and comp Cams dog bone/spider kit. Pretty good deal. And for a 450hp street engine, it's perfectly fine, and works well
450?

Thanks for the laugh... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Obviously, you haven't clue.
"Quality" is like buying oats. You can pay a fair price for it and get some good quality oats,
or you can get it a hell of a lot cheaper, when it's already been through the horse.

Nil Satis Nisi Optimum

Ed Curtis - www.FlowTechInduction.com
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