Bill's SBF build advice

[madmooney]

Hello again. I'm afraid the background on this will be rather long. I have a lifelong friend that scored an excellent condition
63-64 ? ford falcon. It has the 2 speed auto/170 "small block" 6 cyl with holly 2 bl carb, very nice stainless headers with 2 1/4
pipes out the back and a Clay Smith H-274-8-B cam. This thing sounds awesomely nice and crisp but won't get out of it's own
way. He got a C-4 with a small bellhousing and correct torque converter with the car, we sent the converter to Mike at
freakshow and he said all he could get was another 800 rpm out of it without heat issues. Now Bill is mad because it won't idle
in gear, so instead of putting the 3-speed behind the 6cyl he is set on beating the firewall on this cherry car and installing a V-8.
He got a very good condition 72-73 302 with very little ridge ring and all brngs looked good, I told him I would cut the ridge,
ball hone it, new bearings, rings, oil pump, 108* 225-235 @.050 cam, valve springs, 4 bbl intake, headers and run it. He knows
he'll have to get a bellhousing and converter, but is all over the place on the motor. He wants it mild enough for his girlfriend
to drive it and then says 500 HP. He's concerned about torque plate honing the cyls but did not understand why you would
install main studs and line hone the mains. He's also talked about roller cams and dome pistons and don't believe me that you
can make more power with pump gas compression and the correct roller cam kit from Mr Jones. I do have Him convinced that
the HP is in the heads but AFR 220 comps might be a little much. He's not adverse to spending a little money, but I think
he want's a car that sounds nice and will really romp when you rug it, this ain't gonna be a race car. I'm gonna have him join up
so he can ask his own questions. All drivetrain advice is welcome cause I ain't a Ford guy and can't really help him.

[madmooney]

Also stroker advice is welcome like how much grinding is needed on a 347,

[BillK]

The only thing I have seen "ridge reaming" do is ruin blocks.

[lance flake]

I’m all for doing more with less. Even cheap still takes a good bit of money. He needs to get a realistic budget together before starting any work.

[rebelrouser]

I used to call ridge reaming and then honing a farmer's overhaul. When you use a block with a lot of taper the rings expand and contract everytime they go up and down the cylinder. Take a piece of wire and bend it back and forth, after a while it will break, so will the rings. The farmers would bring in an engine and complain I just put rings in it 10,00 miles ago, and it smokes. You could take out the piston and shake it and watch the top ring fall off in pieces. Tell your buddy to build a good short block and find a good set of aftermarket heads. I never built may small block fords, but I always wondered how they ever made them run with the little bitty ports a stock 289 and 302 have.

[Bigchief632]

One nice thing about non roller 302 blocks is it's simple and cheap to convert to roller. Summit, Jegs, etc sells a kit with the spider and dog bones, you drill and tap 2 holes in the lifter valley, use stock style hydraulic roller lifters. That's what I would be doing these days, in fact, I make it mandatory or I won't do it. Unless you get verified quality lifters from someone like Mike at Jones Cams that knows the supplier and can verify the quality, otherwise you're rolling the dice on flat tappet lifters.

The other thing, I'd spend the money, get some Speed Pro Hyperuetectic flat tops, bore the block and tq plate hone. It's worth the money. It will run much better and last much longer.

[EDC]

500 HP?

More like 275 HP with this type of build.

Might want to do more research.

[Bigchief632]

If he isn't apposed to spending some money and wants 500hp, like said above, ain't happening on a ball honed 302 rering job, I'd make it a 347. Then you'd have a fighting chance to make 500hp without spinning it 7500 rpm. But a nice 440hp, 440tq 347 that runs 6500 would be fun.

[BCjohnny]

First thing I'd do would be rebuild all the suspension with decent parts, lowered stiffer springs, vented discs out front, a drum 8" with slipper out the back, and powered steering if doesn't have it ..... otherwise whether or not the 'girlfriend' is driving, it'll probably end up in the scenery

I'd then find/build a decent AOD and put a slightly uprated converter in it to match the engine build/cam

Whatever is left on the budget I'd spend on a sensibly modified 302, built to workmanlike standard with no more than an advertised 270-280* roller cam (an 'alphabet' would do), with the aim of 325-340 bhp just shy of 6k rpm ...... you may or may not want Alum heads to get there

No fancy rods or crank, you have a 28oz shaft already and the OE resized strap rods will work ok, but an early (or late) set of ribbed caps might be wise ..... I'd only go the stroker route to pull some cam out of it

JMO

[panic]

Doesn't sound like he wants good advice, but approval.

[madmooney]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I haven't been able to contact Bill yet as he is working long hours right now. I haven't seen
this motor in person, but was under the impression it would take a "freshen up". I agree you can't trust everyone with a reamer,
I had one guy tell me the taper helped you get the rings back in. But this is a moot point now as he has been in contact
with a local machine shop that doe's a lot of race motors and it's gonna get a .030 bore and plate hone. I had no idea you could
drill and tap a early Ford block for a factory roller set up. You would have to be a fool not to do this if it works properly. How do
you set endplay? Cam button? Maybe the machine shop can help us with this. I agree around 400HP @ 6500 would be a realistic
goal and loads of fun in that Falcon! I see a 8.8 in his future. How about the bottom end? Can you use good bolts without
a line bore? Studs with a line bore? Stock OK at that power level? He said all the mains looked good at tear down.
How about stroker kits? I don't think this motor will ever have a power adder, but he may get a wild hair and try to turn it
7200 rpm. So, 331, 347? The last 347 I looked at had huge chunks cut out of the lower cyl bore to clear H-beams and I'm not sure
we're up to chopping on it like that with no experience. Maybe we should let the machine shop do clearance and assy on the
short block if he goes that way. So what are the pros and cons of the stroker kits? Hyper vs forged? Scat 9000 vs forged?
Internal vs external balance? Longer than stock rods? I-beam vs H-beam? He's got a little money to spend on this but needs to
keep costs at a reasonable level. So many questions. Please treat us like we're little dumb kids and not 60 years old.

[af2]

Doesn't sound like he wants good advice, but approval.

Not going to get any!!

[madmooney]

Not sure what inspired that comment from panic, but of course we want approval. If you can plan a build from advice on
speed talk and get any kind of approval you can be pretty sure it's gonna run good and not fly apart the first time you rug it.
Thats the whole point of using the best resource on the internet. This ain't yellow bullet you know.

[frnkeore]

I'm a old guy, from the '60's and I had two K cars, between '67 & '74. '64 Fairlane & '65 1/2 2+2 Must. I reved them both, above 6500, easily but, they had 3/8 rod bolts. I might trust the early 302 rods, with ribs on the caps and ARP bolts ( have at least 1 set for sale), to 6k. Used rods have to be measured for ID, to be within spec or resized.

First the Falcon is light and HP will really be felt.

My formula, would, in your case be:
balanced 347, rotating assy and deck the block .006/.010 (decking is very important)
Cheapest head will be the early 351W's, about ~9.8 CR
Best head, AFR 165 or 185, ~10.25
280/230 In, 286/236 (more Ex, with 351 heads) Ex, 108 - 110 LSA 104-106 ICL.
At least a Edel 7121 dual plane intake or a used Torqer or 7515 Weiand single plane and headers

Both heads should run on 91/92 oct

The stock rear end won't take it and a 8" would be iffy. A 57-59, 9" will fit, with the right wheel.

In that car, it will be a sit down, hold on and shut up ride!

These are approximations, based on a 10cc piston relief, 5cc will get you above the 91 oct, requirement, with my specs.

[Bigchief632]

Scat 9000 crank, I beam rods and KB Hypereutectics would be fine for this deal. As far as the block, You would have to install ARP main bolts, tq to spec, and measure housing bores vs doing the same with the stock bolts. I'd bet money it's different, and out of spec. Plent of guys have just installed girdles and ARP hardware on stock blocks, and it ran just fine. Is it the correct way, no. If you are bringing it to a machine shop anyhow, why wouldn't you just do it right. Line hone, with studs, $200, BHJ sq deck to "zero" $200, bore and tq plate hone .030, $300. Prices may vary depending on shop and location, but you're talking plus or minus $50 for each operation. If he's working "long" hours, he should certainly have an extra $600-$700 for this deal. And I PROMISE you, it will run DRAMATICLEY better, last longer and make more power. I am a chevy guy, but I think one of the coolest engines is a 347 302 based ford. Honestly, I would like to build a 363 Dart block based "302" and make it a Clevor with factory 4v Cleveland heads and put it in my 73 Camaro. Believe it or not, I've made 862hp with factory Cleveland 4v heads naturally aspirated. I think they are bad to the bone. You could do a "fake" boss 302 too. I had one come in 5-6 years ago, that had been made a Boss 302 "clone". They used 2v heads, and I can't remember the brand, but some dual plane aftermarket aluminum intake that fit that combo. The guy I did it for was a car builder who was working on the car, the owner had no clue what he had. I said, it's a Boss 302?!! the Car builder said, Oh, it is? I'm a chevy guy, is that good? I was like cool. Until I started looking at it, that's what it was, I made it a 347, and it rocked for what it was. Went into a 68 Mustang. I should mention, to install the cleveland heads on a windsor block, takes a bit of modification, but it's not overly complicated.