How will you go faster?

[juuhanaa]

So then why do so few racers make use of data as a tool? Why do they piss away thousands on engines and yet fail to understand what is actually happening on the track?

They say whatever makes you happy.. So if winning makes you happy, then brain power/braintorq is not necessarily what an individual needs to achieve it.

If brain power makes you happy, walk a dog every single day and think.



-juhana

[David Redszus]

So if winning makes you happy, then brain power/braintorq is not necessarily what an
individual needs to achieve it.

Somebodys brain power is necessary for winning, if not your own.
But winning does not necessarily produce happiness; at least not for very long.

There is always another hill to climb.

[juuhanaa]

So if winning makes you happy, then brain power/braintorq is not necessarily what an
individual needs to achieve it.

Somebodys brain power is necessary for winning, if not your own.
But winning does not necessarily produce happiness; at least not for very long.

There is always another hill to climb.

But winning does not necessarily produce happiness; at least not for very long.

The problem with winning a hillclimb event is that the trophy can be so tall that it won't stay upright on the dashboard of the service car on the way home.

[digger]

I think many guys are hung up on the word Horse Power. It has been in there life as the "standard" for how fast a car can go but, HP actually has no real relevance to cars, that use torque to move them.

To improve drag times and trap speed look at it from kinetic energy perspective, maximising kinetic energy per time is what is required and this is ultimately power. This is is why it is such a simple and useful performance metric. Even simply using the peak hp number is surprisingly accurate performance potential indicator , where as looking at peak torque is a complete waste of time.

[tuffxf]

This whole post is almost a sales pitch for selling data loggers.
They are great, you have to interpret what you see.
They help getting those last little bits if needed, I learned heaps from my rpm performance unit.
Nothing huge but everything helps.
Best thing anyone could do is dyno the engine with a reputable guy with an honest dyno at a realistic acceleration rate, weigh the car with you in it.
Buy an old school moroso slide rule and see what it says,
Far more accurate then most of the rubbish online.
It will give you an idea where your focus needs to be.
Even a video camera in the car that can see the tree and the tacho is a poor mans data logger.
The more you measure, the more you learn, if you can get your head around it.
Nice to have but definitely not a must have!
Cheers

[David Redszus]

HP actually has no real relevance to cars, that use torque to move them.

Quite true.

Even simply using the peak hp number is surprisingly accurate performance potential indicator , where as looking at peak torque is a complete waste of time.

Peak torque is not a performance indicator. Peak horsepower is not a performance indicator.
Best performance is given by maximizing the area under the torque curve from near the torque peak to near the power peak. Remember that for any torque value on the torque curve there exists a corresponding power value, they change together.

But average power is another beast.

HP = Mass x Distance / Time
if:
Mass = 3000 lbs
Distance = 1320 ft
Time = 12 sec, then:

HP = 3000lbs x 1320ft /12sec = 330,000 lbft/s = 600HP
Horsepower is a valid indicator of how much power is needed for a 3000lb car, to cover 1320 ft, in 12 s.
But it does not tell us anything about acceleration in each gear, shift points, traction limits or gear selection.

If we seek to learn about acceleration, traction limits, we work with torque.
If we are looking for maximum speed, we need engine rpm, gearing and tire size.

If we want to go really, really fast, we work with money.

[Tom68]

This whole post is almost a sales pitch for selling data loggers.

Cheers

Is that what's going on !!!!

I thought I was in the some parallel universe where Horsepower is totally irrelevant and all motor racing is conducted standing around benches torquing.

[skinny z]

This whole post is almost a sales pitch for selling data loggers.

Cheers

Is that what's going on !!!!

I thought I was in the some parallel universe where Horsepower is totally irrelevant and all motor racing is conducted standing around benches torquing.

It used to be we hung around the work bench and talked racing our cars.
Now we hang the internet and race our computers.
Interestingly, I've been learning either way.
I've got some pretty choice nuggets from this thread. I've applied them virtually with some modelling of actual past performances and am eager to know how it'll play out in the real world.
Thanks to those who addressed my case study in particular.
Keep it coming folks.

[David Redszus]

I thought I was in the some parallel universe where Horsepower is totally irrelevant and all motor racing is conducted standing around benches torquing.

Horsepower is not totally irrelevant. Peak horsepower has little value.

Torque (at the wheels) is what moves the car. But for every point along the torque curve, there is a corresponding horsepower value. In fact, torque and horsepower are usually plotted on the same graph.

Maximum acceleration occurs near the torque peak (in each gear) but that does not correspond to maximum horsepower. Maximum speed occurs near the horsepower peak.

Think area under the torque curve. It could be area under the horsepower curve as well.
But horsepower numbers are converted to torque numbers for easier calculation.

[frnkeore]

As I said, way back, in this thread, HP is a formula, derived from TQ. HP isn't useful, after rpm doesn't multiply TQ enough to make up for the TQ loss or the mechanical multiplication of it. Once you understand the formula, you see whats going on. The TQ doesn't have to change to increase HP, when it's being multiplied by rpm but, rpm can't be used w/o mechanical reduction, when applying it to cars.

My point from the beginning was, that on a dyno, you need to watch how the peak TQ falls off, after max and you need to try to smooth that drop off and flatten it.

In a race situation, gearing is also critical, because of the way HP works. You need to use every bit of the available TQ & HP, before the finish line.

[In-Tech]

Here is a limited tire circle track car. We couldn't take advantage of more off the corner, so I had a cam made that gave it the same at exit and more after that. Of course it was much faster into the corner now. Chassis adjustments were made, walah, "how will you go faster?" was answered

Dyno.jpg

[In-Tech]

Hiya,
It took me a bit to find the chassis dyno results for this 350, I'll have to dig for more specifics. I was very sick back in 2016/2017 and induced coma's for days on each surgery, you never quite come back all the way. I am curious if I can find the numbers, if one of you guys would see if it matches an aftermarket sim compared to the one I have in my head

[Ken_Parkman]

HP = Mass x Distance / Time
if:
Mass = 3000 lbs
Distance = 1320 ft
Time = 12 sec, then:

HP = 3000lbs x 1320ft /12sec = 330,000 lbft/s = 600HP
Horsepower is a valid indicator of how much power is needed for a 3000lb car, to cover 1320 ft, in 12 s.
But it does not tell us anything about acceleration in each gear, shift points, traction limits or gear selection.

Sorry David this is not the physics. Power = work/time. Above you have the power to lift 3000 lbs 1320 ft strait up in 12 sec.

You really might make a lot of 12 second car owners very happy telling them they have 600 hp, but unfortunately not.

[digger]

HP = Mass x Distance / Time
if:
Mass = 3000 lbs
Distance = 1320 ft
Time = 12 sec, then:

HP = 3000lbs x 1320ft /12sec = 330,000 lbft/s = 600HP
Horsepower is a valid indicator of how much power is needed for a 3000lb car, to cover 1320 ft, in 12 s.
But it does not tell us anything about acceleration in each gear, shift points, traction limits or gear selection.

Sorry David this is not the physics. Power = work/time. Above you have the power to lift 3000 lbs 1320 ft strait up in 12 sec.

You really might make a lot of 12 second car owners very happy telling them they have 600 hp, but unfortunately not.

given distance /time is velocity

mass x velocity = momentum not hp

force x velocity = power

[hoffman900]

I liked what one of the Mercedes F1 chiefs said, paraphrasing “power involves unit time and since we’re racing a clock, we always want more power”