Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

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1972ho
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Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by 1972ho »

https://blog.amsoil.com/100-synthetic-o ... ifference/. This is incredible now no one really knows what’s in those bottles by the package label it may are may not be.And they tell us we get what we pay for.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by RDY4WAR »

"100% synthetic" and "full synthetic" are just marketing terms, nothing more. Hence the quote from that blog...

"The oil could use 90% Group IV and 10% Group III base oil; or, it could use 90% Group III and 10% Group IV base oils. As long as it only uses Groups III, IV or V base oils, it’s a synthetic oil.

That being the case, the terms “100% synthetic” and “full synthetic” describe the same thing. They’re synonymous, and an oil marketer can use whichever it prefers provided the oil in the bottle meets the industry description of “synthetic” outlined above.
"

There's pros and cons to all base oil groups. Just because a synthetic oil is made using group III base oils doesn't mean it's inferior to a synthetic oil using group IV. In fact, group III base oils can outperform group IV base oils in many parameters including solubility and dynamic shear stability. The only advantage group IV PAO really has over group III/III+ is at very cold temperatures. Group III can't touch PAO's ability to flow in extreme cold.

As stated in that blog, it used to be that only group IV and V base oils could be called synthetic due to the process used to make them. Then advancements with group III had them rivaling group IV in performance, leading to that use by Castrol and the lawsuit. Since that lawsuit though, the investment in group III base oils has exploded.

PAO is no longer the preferred choice in many applications, even for high end racing oils. Modern day advancements in group III+ base oils have them rivaling PAO even at temperatures >450°F. The major downside of PAO is it's largely non-polar (poor solubility) meaning it can be a struggle to solubilize additives in it and get them to activate. (additive response) It's a pain getting ZDDP and other additives to start working in PAO, especially at lower temperatures. (hence why you don't use "synthetic" for break-in) The additive response of group III base oils are far superior to PAOs and with the same or better performance, there's no real reason to use PAOs unless you're trying to crank the engine over in -40°F weather.

The overwhelming majority of synthetic oils are group III based, including many high end racing oils. There's no sense in using group IV, at 6x the cost, when group III/III+ gives similar or better results.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by Tom68 »

RDY4WAR wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:41 pm

The overwhelming majority of synthetic oils are group III based, including many high end racing oils. There's no sense in using group IV, at 6x the cost, when group III/III+ gives similar or better results.
Not forgetting most users don't even need the group 3 if they have everything working right and aren't in a F1 race.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by RDY4WAR »

There's a fairly big gap in performance between group II and III, and an even bigger gap between the low end and high end offerings of group III base oils. Many engines don't "need" the group III, I will agree with that, but can still benefit from its lower volatility, improved shear stability, improved foaming/aeration resistance, and better oxidation resistance. I don't bother with group I and II conventional. There's just no point when the difference in cost for group III is mere pennies on the gallon (typically, weird pandemic-induced anomalies aside) for a big jump in performance.

Group III is a huge base oil group as it includes everything with a VI >120 that isn't a group IV PAO or group V POE, AN, or other ester and naphthenic base oils. The natural gas derived base oils (gas-to-liquid or GTL) base oils used by Pennzoil (Shell) and Mobil 1 are classed as group III. Renewable base oils derived from sugar cane and algae are classed as group III. (and outperform a lot of group III options. Google: "SynNova SSBO")
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by Walter R. Malik »

Tom68 wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:02 am
RDY4WAR wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:41 pm

The overwhelming majority of synthetic oils are group III based, including many high end racing oils. There's no sense in using group IV, at 6x the cost, when group III/III+ gives similar or better results.
Not forgetting most users don't even need the group 3 if they have everything working right and aren't in a F1 race.
Yet, some still change it every week ... they must have some horrendous blow-by or coolant leaks.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

RDY4WAR wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:20 am There's a fairly big gap in performance between group II and III, and an even bigger gap between the low end and high end offerings of group III base oils. Many engines don't "need" the group III, I will agree with that, but can still benefit from its lower volatility, improved shear stability, improved foaming/aeration resistance, and better oxidation resistance. I don't bother with group I and II conventional. There's just no point when the difference in cost for group III is mere pennies on the gallon (typically, weird pandemic-induced anomalies aside) for a big jump in performance.

Group III is a huge base oil group as it includes everything with a VI >120 that isn't a group IV PAO or group V POE, AN, or other ester and naphthenic base oils. The natural gas derived base oils (gas-to-liquid or GTL) base oils used by Pennzoil (Shell) and Mobil 1 are classed as group III. Renewable base oils derived from sugar cane and algae are classed as group III. (and outperform a lot of group III options. Google: "SynNova SSBO")
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by ClassAct »

I do know one company is using Group IV and V base stock for their racing oil. I have yet to test an oil that will out power it yet.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by JC565Ford »

RDY4WAR wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:20 am
Group III is a huge base oil group as it includes everything with a VI >120 that isn't a group IV PAO or group V POE, AN, or other ester and naphthenic base oils. The natural gas derived base oils (gas-to-liquid or GTL) base oils used by Pennzoil (Shell) and Mobil 1 are classed as group III. Renewable base oils derived from sugar cane and algae are classed as group III. (and outperform a lot of group III options. Google: "SynNova SSBO")

You just might be the person to ask this ...
Roller cam engine with valve springs in the 725-740 lbs range over the nose.

Looking for a Performance 10-40 syn oil. Mobil One just makes 10-40 in their "high Mileage" product.

Just last night was looking for options and came across the AmsOil 10-40 ZRod ( high zinc)
https://www.amsoil.com/p/z-rod-10w-40-s ... H0EALw_wcB

And the oil from Maxima:
https://maximausa.com/series-255-extra.html


I don't know enough about either of them to make a choice at this time over the M1 10-40.

Thoughts ?
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by RDY4WAR »

NewbVetteGuy wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:26 pm The learning curve for engine oil feels like it's straight up sometimes.
A lot of people think "oil is oil." I've been at this since I was 18 and still learning something new every day.
ClassAct wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:05 pm I do know one company is using Group IV and V base stock for their racing oil. I have yet to test an oil that will out power it yet.
Which one?
JC565Ford wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:02 am
RDY4WAR wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:20 am
Group III is a huge base oil group as it includes everything with a VI >120 that isn't a group IV PAO or group V POE, AN, or other ester and naphthenic base oils. The natural gas derived base oils (gas-to-liquid or GTL) base oils used by Pennzoil (Shell) and Mobil 1 are classed as group III. Renewable base oils derived from sugar cane and algae are classed as group III. (and outperform a lot of group III options. Google: "SynNova SSBO")

You just might be the person to ask this ...
Roller cam engine with valve springs in the 725-740 lbs range over the nose.

Looking for a Performance 10-40 syn oil. Mobil One just makes 10-40 in their "high Mileage" product.

Just last night was looking for options and came across the AmsOil 10-40 ZRod ( high zinc)
https://www.amsoil.com/p/z-rod-10w-40-s ... H0EALw_wcB

And the oil from Maxima:
https://maximausa.com/series-255-extra.html


I don't know enough about either of them to make a choice at this time over the M1 10-40.

Thoughts ?
What's the complete engine build including rpm, fuel, power adders, bearing clearance, and use of the engine? A 10W-40 is an obsolete grade though some brands still make it.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by Elroy »

RDY4WAR wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:31 am A 10W-40 is an obsolete grade though some brands still make it.
Made obsolete by the 0w40's? Whats your opinion on Mobil 0w40 Supercar oil?
Last edited by Elroy on Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by ClassAct »

RDY4WAR wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:31 am
NewbVetteGuy wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:26 pm The learning curve for engine oil feels like it's straight up sometimes.
A lot of people think "oil is oil." I've been at this since I was 18 and still learning something new every day.
ClassAct wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:05 pm I do know one company is using Group IV and V base stock for their racing oil. I have yet to test an oil that will out power it yet.
Which one?
JC565Ford wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:02 am
RDY4WAR wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:20 am
Group III is a huge base oil group as it includes everything with a VI >120 that isn't a group IV PAO or group V POE, AN, or other ester and naphthenic base oils. The natural gas derived base oils (gas-to-liquid or GTL) base oils used by Pennzoil (Shell) and Mobil 1 are classed as group III. Renewable base oils derived from sugar cane and algae are classed as group III. (and outperform a lot of group III options. Google: "SynNova SSBO")

You just might be the person to ask this ...
Roller cam engine with valve springs in the 725-740 lbs range over the nose.

Looking for a Performance 10-40 syn oil. Mobil One just makes 10-40 in their "high Mileage" product.

Just last night was looking for options and came across the AmsOil 10-40 ZRod ( high zinc)
https://www.amsoil.com/p/z-rod-10w-40-s ... H0EALw_wcB

And the oil from Maxima:
https://maximausa.com/series-255-extra.html


I don't know enough about either of them to make a choice at this time over the M1 10-40.

Thoughts ?
What's the complete engine build including rpm, fuel, power adders, bearing clearance, and use of the engine? A 10W-40 is an obsolete grade though some brands still make it.


Torco is Group IV/V base oils. I knew at one time what percentages of each they were but that was in 1993 (or a bit later but not much) but I have no idea if they are the same today.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by chimpvalet »

Motul products are readily available on Canada's West Coast, any insights into those?

Cheers
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by RDY4WAR »

Elroy wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:32 am
RDY4WAR wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:31 am A 10W-40 is an obsolete grade though some brands still make it.
Made obsolete by the 0w40's? Whats your opinion on Mobil 0w40 Supercar oil?
With how good today's base oils are, it's easier to make a 5W-40 that outperforms a 10W-40. 0W-40 is kinda the jack of all trades. I haven't had a chance to look at M1's Supercar 0W-40.
ClassAct wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:00 am Torco is Group IV/V base oils. I knew at one time what percentages of each they were but that was in 1993 (or a bit later but not much) but I have no idea if they are the same today.
Torco's racing oils are tri-synthetic meaning a blend of all 3 synthetic base oil groups. It's likely ~70% group III with ~10% mPAO (group IV) and ~8% POE (group V) with the remaining ~12% being the additive package. It's good oil.
chimpvalet wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:33 pm Motul products are readily available on Canada's West Coast, any insights into those?

Cheers
I know of people who have had good results with Motul, but I haven't personally done much with it.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by ClassAct »

RDY4WAR wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:17 pm
Elroy wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:32 am
RDY4WAR wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:31 am A 10W-40 is an obsolete grade though some brands still make it.
Made obsolete by the 0w40's? Whats your opinion on Mobil 0w40 Supercar oil?
With how good today's base oils are, it's easier to make a 5W-40 that outperforms a 10W-40. 0W-40 is kinda the jack of all trades. I haven't had a chance to look at M1's Supercar 0W-40.
ClassAct wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:00 am Torco is Group IV/V base oils. I knew at one time what percentages of each they were but that was in 1993 (or a bit later but not much) but I have no idea if they are the same today.
Torco's racing oils are tri-synthetic meaning a blend of all 3 synthetic base oil groups. It's likely ~70% group III with ~10% mPAO (group IV) and ~8% POE (group V) with the remaining ~12% being the additive package. It's good oil.
chimpvalet wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:33 pm Motul products are readily available on Canada's West Coast, any insights into those?

Cheers
I know of people who have had good results with Motul, but I haven't personally done much with it.


Are you SURE Torco is using any Group III base oils in their race oils? I didn’t ask the last time I talked to Ernie (2014) but…I didn’t ask him that. I don’t remember us ever talking about Group III base oils in any of the race oils.


LOL…if I wasn’t so damn sick I’d pick up the phone and call them just so I know. Maybe tomorrow because I feel like microwaved dog crap today.
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Re: Full vs 100 percent synthetic oil

Post by NewbVetteGuy »

I'll add my random oil questions to this thread as it seems to be going that way already:

Modern Synthetic Oils & Slow-Leakdown Hyd Roller Lifters: Is this combination potentially a problem or not?

My understanding is that all the new fuel economy-focused oil-certifications are driving decreasing High-Temp / High-Shear (HT/HS) values for oil, but sheer stability is important when forcing oil through increasingly small hyd lifter passages.

-There was a series of LOONG threads about Morel lifter noise and the conclusion was a pretty authoritative statement that they work better with an oil with an HT/HS of 3.8-4.1 cP. BUT when I look at the SAE viscosity table, it seems to require a 50 weight oil to get to 3.7 cP...

Johnson made a statement that their lifters are "made to work on even the thinnest weight oils", so I don't know what to make of all of that...
Oil Viscosity Table.jpg
My understanding is that the HT/HS value is based upon 150 degree C oil temps; the actual viscosity is going to be greater at lower temps, so can you just reduce oil temps to prevent lifters from bleeding down pre-maturely with the same grade of oil?




@RDY4WAR: You mentioned earlier that Grade IV base stocks have solubility problems with some additives and mentioned Zinc/ZDDP specifically; does this mean if someone's looking to add their own ZDDP additive to an off-the-shelf oil that they'd be better off starting with an engine oil that appears to be from Grade III basestock? (Which I THINK you can guess at based upon the higher Pour Point temp rating from the SDS?...)



Adam
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