289 Build Help

[jstauffe]

Hi I have been lurking on this site for a while now, almost afraid to post because of the awe I have for all of these knowledgeable folks. I appreciate your help and apologize for the long post in advance!

Car: 1966 Mustang coupe, had it for 37 years, was my first car. 3200lb with driver, T5 manual, Spec stage 2 clutch, 9" rear 3.50 gears, 25.5ish diameter tire, EEC IV fuel injection, Moates Quarterhorse tuned by me. Best time unimpressive 14.1 @101 at Cecil County Dragway. I drive the car nice weather to work, weekends, some shows, and have done partial Power Tour in it a few times back when they did the east coast version.

Me: 52 yr mechanical engineer, definitely not an engine builder, but am one who likes to do everything myself so I know who to blame when it doesn't work. Slightly ADD with cars, shop infrastructure, family and other projects so have semi-limited time and resources for max out car builds. 2 kids in college doesn't help. I like to drive them and they aren't perfect. Enjoy it greatly need to retire early to do it more!

Motor: 289 that I first rebuilt when 17, then stock heads, cast pistons, Crane Energizer cam(272/272, 216/216, 0.484/0.484, 110 LSA), long tubes 1-5/8, 2.5" flowmaster full exhaust with H-pipe. Motor has been thru a few iterations and tear downs. Last year had a head gasket issue that snowballed into another complete tear down and upgrade. Got what I thought was a good deal on edelbrock E-Streets with some bent valves that turned the deal into meh, but after machinist went thru them I intend to use.

Current Motor config: E-streets (5023) 1.9/1.6, milled ~0.030" to get them down to 56cc(measured), upgraded 7/16" ARP rocker studs, as shipped springs(125 on seat, 325 @ 0.550), 1.6" RR, 4.030" forged Seal Power pistons ~0.016" out of the hole(accident zero decking the block), 0.051 cometic HG, 0.035" quench, 9.7:1 compression, clearanced valve reliefs, stock crank 0.010" under and rods with upgraded ARP rod bolts, entire assembly 28 oz balanced. Ford Racing GT-40 intake ported by Tom Moss to match the E-Street heads 250 cfm, 65mm T-body, 75mm Mass air, 24lb injectors(for now have 30's if needed).

Goal: Strong street car, occasional trips to the strip, like to try autocross. My 21 yr old son has a '67 with a 306 Edelbrock 5.0 heads, mighty B cam that we screwed together, and he walks me all day every day. I'd love to at least keep up with him and his buddies! If I could get 12's I'd be happy, 11's ecstatic. I drag race maybe once or twice a year when they talk me into it. Definitely blessed to have a kid as into it as I am so support them with my shop. I like to think I'm raising next gen gear heads, at least doing my part. Our neighbors really do love us, I promise.

Problem: Tried out a comp XE268H cam, Isky hydraulic flat tappet lifter combo(thought they would be decent based on research), had a couple of snafus ended up wiping the cam so it needs to come back apart. I did all the stuff Gibbs break in oil, oil prime, 20 mins 2000-2500 etc, but ended up with sparkly oil in the filter and at least 2 wiped lobes. Could have easily been me, could have been cam, maybe springs too much over the nose, many possibilities. Moving forward decided to try the custom cam route have been talking to the honorable and mighty Mike Jones.

I've been trolling on here a LOT, and trying to decide how much semi-streetable power I can spin out of this little motor with the current combo. I am unreasonably attached to it and can't bring myself to upgrade to something else until I kill it completely. When that happens I have a '69 351W block waiting. I don't mind a rough idle or shifting. I'd like to see 350-400 fwhp, but not sure how high I'd have to spin it to get there...so here we go....

Questions:
1. Are my goals achievable with the parts I have listed? Please call me out if I'm smoking crack.
2. If yes, how fast would I have to spin this motor to make 350-400 fwhp? Mike needs this info for the cam, and I know you all (N20Mike, 289Nate) can give an experience based answer. Can my internals handle it?
3. Are these heads ok? Specs say flow around 242 @ 0.500, 249@0.6, so they seem like they will fit the bill for this little motor and 400 HP. Anybody have experience running them? Any issues? I will upgrade springs if necessary.
4. Mike spec'd a mechanical flat tappet with the edm hole, which I am nervously considering due to the lower cost. Have folks had good experience with this type design, and if so, what type of oil do you generally run after break in? The other option is a roller either mechanical or hydraulic(depending on answer #2 above). I've read all the threads I can find on this site and the general consensus I see is that they will perform the same for my goals, especially if Mike supplies cam and lifters. I guess before I spend the time I want to feel good about not wiping another cam. It takes me many 1 hour at a time/weekend days to pull a motor and go thru it, and I am considering the roller to reduce stress and blood pressure. Please help me feel good about MFT cams!

Thanks again if you made it this far I greatly look forward to comments and suggestions.
Jonathan

[Racer97]

I don't run that small a cube engine but my good friend does and he runs 4.30 rear gears with a T5 trans. It's in a 3400 pound mustang convertible. It has 9 to 1 compression solid flat cam in the 245 int. 252 ex.@ .050 545 560 ish lift on a 109 LSA . GT40 heads hand ported but not a pro porter . The best he has ran is 12.55. 7200 shift points. It is 750 Holley performer RPM intake.

[In-Tech]

Stick with Mike, he'll get you squared away. Nothing wrong with a SFT. I bet ~242/246 on 108 would drive nice with those 3.50 gears. 250/258 on 106 would storm and be very nasty

[Mummert]

It doesn't take much to get into the 12's. If you want it to be a street driver, make power between 6300-6500 rpm. You need to get the compression up 10.5:1. Duration doesn't help little engines much, if anything its a negative. 226*-230*@.050 on the intake and get some lift .560" ish. The exhaust valves are too big for a little engine but its the generic thing the head builders do to save money. 110 LC with your fuel injection, it can help prevent over scavenging with your big exhaust valves. Run a straight through type muffler like a Magna Flow. T-5's have a .68 over drive, 3.50 gears are too tall the engine would barely be 2000rpm going down the highway. 3.89 -4.10 rear gear.
It only takes 325 RWHP to run mid 12's
Possibly shortening your intake runners with a box type upper could help in the upper rev range.

[lefty o]

you definately need some gear. small cube engine needs to turn to make any power, and accelerate.

[289nate]

Before we get into the engine you need to tell me about how you launch and your 60 foot. Most important part of a drag race.

[289nate]

It doesn't take much to get into the 12's. If you want it to be a street driver, make power between 6300-6500 rpm. You need to get the compression up 10.5:1. Duration doesn't help little engines much, if anything its a negative. 226*-230*@.050 on the intake and get some lift .560" ish. The exhaust valves are too big for a little engine but its the generic thing the head builders do to save money. 110 LC with your fuel injection, it can help prevent over scavenging with your big exhaust valves. Run a straight through type muffler like a Magna Flow. T-5's have a .68 over drive, 3.50 gears are too tall the engine would barely be 2000rpm going down the highway. 3.89 -4.10 rear gear.
It only takes 325 RWHP to run mid 12's
Possibly shortening your intake runners with a box type upper could help in the upper rev range.

Yup. But it will need a custom dome piston to get that compression. I was just under 10:1 with my last build. Huge dual relief Probe old school pistons.

The first look should be focused on the car and not the engine. If we dropped your engine in my car it would run 12 something with me driving. It sure isn’t 3,200 lbs. That is the weight of N2OMikes car. He’s a real bad ass.

[jstauffe]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm not against more gear I need to pull the pumpkin to rebuild the traction lok anyways. This T5 has the 3.36 first. Thinking 3.89-4.11 may be the ticket.

325 whp is ~ 400 fwhp with a manual trans (80%) so it sounds like I'm not too far off. My original question tho how hard to spin a 289 to get there and what can my parts support?

I double checked my notes and you are right I misspoke the car is 3300 with me in it. At this point I have to focus on the motor because it's broken. Believe me I wish I could just drive it! I miss this car it feels like a glove when I'm in it.

60 foot 2.1 on street tires with traction bars. Soft launch normal shifting. T5s are a bit like glass don't take to much power shifting. I'm sure with tires, cal tracs, a TKX, and practice I could do better. So far I'm about as fast as I've been able to spend .

I'd love to get the compression up, but without changing to domed pistons I don't think I'm getting much more out of this little motor. There is not enough swept volume. I've decked and shaved it to with in an inch of it's little life!

Instead of new pistons would go the stroker route build a 347 out of a roller block. I've been pondering that too but all the parts I have don't add up for it. I'm also on a bit of a budget yet just trying to get it back on the road. This has snowballed greatly from a head gasket fix. As it is gonna take a while to buy the parts from cam snafu, so I'm resigned to doing that with a new custom cam.

Thanks again!

[Joe-71]

Several things to start. The Edelbrock street heads are not very good for what you are wanting to do. The AFR 165 CNC'd heads would be much better. If you had the HO block with HR lifters, then the Motorsports 1.7 bolt down rocker arms would be good. I agree with Mummert on camshaft in the 224-226* with lift near .600", and that GT 40 intake can be ported to flow over 320 cfm easily. The upper needs a Cobra plenum cut apart and ported, or Explorer plenum cut apart and ported to flow ~300 cfm to match the AFR 165 heads. 3.73-3.9 rear gears for sure. 10.2-10.4 compression with aluminum heads should not need a dome if the right heads are used. Joe-71

[rebelrouser]

for what it is worth, build an engine that is small on the outside and big on the inside. No replacement for displacement. If you are not concerned about numbers matching and got to keep it all original, which from your post I don't think you are, you just want to enjoy your car. Build the biggest displacement Ford small block you can. Cost of most of the parts are close, compared to a good rebuild original displacement compared to a stroker. Especially if you want street manners and drivability. One to 1 to 1.5 HP per cubic inch is relatively easy and cost effective so just do the math 289 or I see some popular ford small block combos up to 408 CID I don't build many Ford engines, but I am sure guys on here do they can give you the pluses and minus of the different bore and stroke combos. I had a buddy who I went to school with, he quit the car hobby for many years and then decided to get back into it, built a 69 camaro with a 327 it sounded great but was kind of slow, and I asked him why in the world do you build a 327? He said that is how we used to do it. I helped him build a 600hp 408, and he was much happier with it, and it actually cost a little less than the 327 build.

[PackardV8]

for what it is worth, build an engine that is small on the outside and big on the inside. No replacement for displacement. If you are not concerned about numbers matching and got to keep it all original, which from your post I don't think you are, you just want to enjoy your car. Build the biggest displacement Ford small block you can. Cost of most of the parts are close, compared to a good rebuild original displacement compared to a stroker. Especially if you want street manners and drivability. One to 1 to 1.5 HP per cubic inch is relatively easy and cost effective so just do the math 289 or I see some popular ford small block combos up to 408 CID I don't build many Ford engines, but I am sure guys on here do they can give you the pluses and minus of the different bore and stroke combos. I had a buddy who I went to school with, he quit the car hobby for many years and then decided to get back into it, built a 69 camaro with a 327 it sounded great but was kind of slow, and I asked him why in the world do you build a 327? He said that is how we used to do it. I helped him build a 600hp 408, and he was much happier with it, and it actually cost a little less than the 327 build.

Best advice yet. I was there and building them when the 289" was new. Today, anyone with a credit card can build a 331" or a 347" which will make more horsepower than the best full race engine ever to come out of Shelby American or Holman and Moody in the bad old days. Also, it will be streetable. The 289" 2x4bbls were a limp mess on the street.

[n2omike]

I have a 1966 mustang that I've owned since age 15... and I'm now 54. First car that has been through countless iterations. Currently runs 6.07 @ 113 on a 100 shot using a 4-speed and pump gas 363 power. Car started out as a rusty stock worn out 2bbl automatic with a 2.80 open rear. Swapped to a 4-speed while in high school via the local junkyard. After the first engine, it was a 14 second car, then 13, 12, 11, 10 and finally 9.

289/306 engines need to rev to make power. The GT40 intake has runners that are far too long to run with your son. By the time you're at 5500 rpm, it's DONE. If you build the engine right (with a carb and Victor Jr... or possibly Vic Jr EFI) and a decent camshaft... with good traction and driving, it will easily run 12's and should do 11's.

My old combo ran high 11's n/a and 10.63 on a 200 shot with home ported 289 heads. This was a perfectly streetable 306 with THOUSANDS of street miles, and often served as sole daily driver. Cam was custom solid flat tappet from Comp. 282S intake lobe, 294S exhaust (236/248 @ 0.050") on a 110 LSA. 1.7 intake rockers for 0.560" lift on both I/E. Shift point was 6800 rpm. With good machine work and valve train geometry, it will have a LONG service life at this level. The next engine was a very similar pump gas 306, but used home ported Twisted Wedge heads. Ran deeper into the 11's n/a and 9.87 @ 136 on a 200 shot. Cam was SFT 242/254 on a 110 LSA. Shift was still 6800. I focused on bottled performance, so that's how the car was geared.

My advice to YOU... Switch to Victor Jr EFI. GET RID OF THE GT40!!!! To make good streetable power, these engines need to turn on HARD at 4k and pull to around 7k. This will require shorter intake runners and solid lifters. PERIOD.

Mike Jones (Jones Cams you referenced) sells some really nice solid flat tappet lifters with a sizeable EDM oiling hole. I used these (and one of his cams) on a ultra low budget 306 in an old style Gasser. Had 0.600" lift and still ran 3 very busy race seasons with zero issue... aside from some stretched valves after a couple seasons in his el-cheapo Chinesium heads. You'll likely need to upgrade your valve springs.

Anyway... Been there, done that with a car very similar to yours. These 289/306 engines need to rev to make power. They REALLY turn on when you properly build them to shift around 6800-7000 rpm... and will still last a very long time. With a cam/intake similar to what I mentioned above, I see no reason why your car wouldn't run 11's with good traction and driving.

I'd do the above and invest in a new cam/intake before building an entire new engine like others are suggesting. If it doesn't suit you for whatever reason, the intake and possibly camshaft could be used in a new build if need be... but I think you'll have plenty to spank your son at will.

PS... You will also need a FREE flowing exhaust system. You'll need mufflers you can see straight through and large diameter pipe. I like 3" pipe off of 3" collectors back to 3" mufflers. You can install a flange to the rear of the 3" mufflers and a reducer down to 2.5" to install Flowmaster mandrel bent tail pipes. Flowmaster # 15807. The flange will make the tailpipes removable for racing... so you can take advantage of a full 3" system for racing, and have tails for the street. The tailpipes are less than $200/pr.

PSS... One more thing. If you have a manual fan, ditch it. The Derale 16926 is STRONG and has a built-in shroud that fits a 1965-66 mustang PERFECTLY. As a bonus, it's only 3-1/4" thick! It's the fan Vintage Air uses for their 65-66 Mustang kits. Less than $200. Pulls around 20 amps or so. Be sure the wiring/relays are up to the task. If you haven't already updated to a 3G alternator, this would be a good time. It will power EVERYTHING on the car, even at idle.

[jstauffe]

I don't run that small a cube engine but my good friend does and he runs 4.30 rear gears with a T5 trans. It's in a 3400 pound mustang convertible. It has 9 to 1 compression solid flat cam in the 245 int. 252 ex.@ .050 545 560 ish lift on a 109 LSA . GT40 heads hand ported but not a pro porter . The best he has ran is 12.55. 7200 shift points. It is 750 Holley performer RPM intake.

Racer97 any idea what the short block consisted of? How was that cam on the street?

[Joe-71]

Again, I disagree with not using the GT-40 intake. If you clean up the Throttle body entry to a 65-70mm throttle body, clean up the runners at the lower intake, and port the lower to flow near or over 300 cfm, cut a Cobra/Explorer upper plenum and port them, they will easily flow 300 cfm, and can be used on up to 385W cubic inches with the ability to rev to 6500 rpm all day long. BTDT on several back in the day. I own a 385W with A-58/Cobra set up like the Cobra R, and it will run in the 10's NA '86GT 5 speed. The 289 at 347/349/352cubic inches and a well ported Cobra intake will definitely rev to 6800-7000 rpm with a good HR camshaft and EFI tweak. This has been done for the last 35 years on hundreds of early Mustangs and 5.0 Fox Mustangs. Joe-71

[jstauffe]

I have a 1966 mustang that I've owned since age 15... and I'm now 54. First car that has been through countless iterations. Currently runs 6.07 @ 113 on a 100 shot using a 4-speed and pump gas 363 power. Car started out as a rusty stock worn out 2bbl automatic with a 2.80 open rear. Swapped to a 4-speed while in high school via the local junkyard. After the first engine, it was a 14 second car, then 13, 12, 11, 10 and finally 9.

289/306 engines need to rev to make power. The GT40 intake has runners that are far too long to run with your son. By the time you're at 5500 rpm, it's DONE. If you build the engine right (with a carb and Victor Jr... or possibly Vic Jr EFI) and a decent camshaft... with good traction and driving, it will easily run 12's and should do 11's.

My old combo ran high 11's n/a and 10.63 on a 200 shot with home ported 289 heads. This was a perfectly streetable 306 with THOUSANDS of street miles, and often served as sole daily driver. Cam was custom solid flat tappet from Comp. 282S intake lobe, 294S exhaust (236/248 @ 0.050") on a 110 LSA. 1.7 intake rockers for 0.560" lift on both I/E. Shift point was 6800 rpm. With good machine work and valve train geometry, it will have a LONG service life at this level. The next engine was a very similar pump gas 306, but used home ported Twisted Wedge heads. Ran deeper into the 11's n/a and 9.87 @ 136 on a 200 shot. Cam was SFT 242/254 on a 110 LSA. Shift was still 6800. I focused on bottled performance, so that's how the car was geared.

My advice to YOU... Switch to Victor Jr EFI. GET RID OF THE GT40!!!! To make good streetable power, these engines need to turn on HARD at 4k and pull to around 7k. This will require shorter intake runners and solid lifters. PERIOD.

Mike Jones (Jones Cams you referenced) sells some really nice solid flat tappet lifters with a sizeable EDM oiling hole. I used these (and one of his cams) on a ultra low budget 306 in an old style Gasser. Had 0.600" lift and still ran 3 very busy race seasons with zero issue... aside from some stretched valves after a couple seasons in his el-cheapo Chinesium heads. You'll likely need to upgrade your valve springs.

Anyway... Been there, done that with a car very similar to yours. These 289/306 engines need to rev to make power. They REALLY turn on when you properly build them to shift around 6800-7000 rpm... and will still last a very long time. With a cam/intake similar to what I mentioned above, I see no reason why your car wouldn't run 11's with good traction and driving.

I'd do the above and invest in a new cam/intake before building an entire new engine like others are suggesting. If it doesn't suit you for whatever reason, the intake and possibly camshaft could be used in a new build if need be... but I think you'll have plenty to spank your son at will.

PS... You will also need a FREE flowing exhaust system. You'll need mufflers you can see straight through and large diameter pipe. I like 3" pipe off of 3" collectors back to 3" mufflers. You can install a flange to the rear of the 3" mufflers and a reducer down to 2.5" to install Flowmaster mandrel bent tail pipes. Flowmaster # 15807. The flange will make the tailpipes removable for racing... so you can take advantage of a full 3" system for racing, and have tails for the street. The tailpipes are less than $200/pr.

PSS... One more thing. If you have a manual fan, ditch it. The Derale 16926 is STRONG and has a built-in shroud that fits a 1965-66 mustang PERFECTLY. As a bonus, it's only 3-1/4" thick! It's the fan Vintage Air uses for their 65-66 Mustang kits. Less than $200. Pulls around 20 amps or so. Be sure the wiring/relays are up to the task. If you haven't already updated to a 3G alternator, this would be a good time. It will power EVERYTHING on the car, even at idle.

N20mike thanks for sharing your experience this is what I was looking for. Sounds like my short block with survive up to 7000 for a little while at least and be ok on the street. Also the SFT appears acceptable.

Swapping the gt40 makes me sad but sounds like a necessary evil. I was afraid of this. The thing just looks so cool to me. They are worth a pretty penny though could probably do a swap for little extra cost. I'll keep an eye out for the victor jr efi. I also have an exploder intake and a cobra on my 93 fox. Maybe the cut up idea could be implemented. Hmmm.

Folks are saying I need 300cfm but that seems like a lot. I thought general rule of thumb was 2x intake flow for hp goals? Given what I've seen in this site for ported 289 heads it seems the e-streets are in range flow wise. Am I missing something here, too much Internet study maybe? I'd love to go afr maybe someday once my kids achieve financial independence.

I do have an aluminum radiator and an electric fan but it's an eBay deal that quite frankly doesn't work well. I was looking at the Taurus fan as an upgrade for this next round. I'll take a look at the derale I like the sound of 20a. My fan is controlled by the eec so programmable.

My alternator is a gm 10si that I converted to one wire so a little bit old school. I've been running it for many many years so far no issues, but can prob go 12 si if needed. We've had trouble with the 3g alternators and v belts they seem to require a serpentine to drive the load. Been there done that with my son we were cranking on them so much the bearings failed.

Exhaust is full mandrel bent 2.5" flowmaster with tails. I will take 3" under advisement. My buddy has a lemans with an ls1 he went full 3" and the thing drones so bad you need rear plugs. Sure would be nice to surprise him!

Thanks again for all the responses I appreciate it. I have a lot to think about now.