Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

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EDC
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by EDC »

In-Tech wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:32 pm The GM "Blue" beehive spring would be great(12499224)...just not sure where you will find an 11/32 retainer for it on the cheap.
I have a chromemoly retainer for this Ford GT40 cylinder head package, which uses beehive springs, that doesn't break the bank.

https://www.flowtechinduction.com/fti-g ... pring-kit/

Would have to check to see if it fits the LS6 yellow and LS7 GM springs though. Don't have any "blue" GM springs kicking around here.
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by CamKing »

PackardV8 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:34 pm Hi, Mike,

I trust your recommendations, so trying to learn something here. I've been going to beehives whenever possible and have usually found about another 300-500 RPM over same seat pressure cylindrical. Why would we choose the old school cylindrical over the beehive?
The GM cam he's running is the same cam that's used in the GM 602 Crate engines, that are used in circle track racing all across the country.
With that PAC-1210X spring, those 602 crate engines turn 6,400 on a regular basis.
Our "Cheater" 602 Crate cams are more aggressive then the GM cam, and these springs are still stable at 6,400.
They take a stock retainer, which are readily available, and dirt cheap.
Installed at 1.700", they have 87# on the seat, and 220# at .460" lift. I don't know of a beehive spring that installs at 1.700, that would have less.

With that cam, and a 6,000rpm redline, he could even save some money and run the GM #19154761 springs that come in the 602 crate engine.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal- ... 1#overview
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by CamKing »

EDC wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:10 am A quick note....

Maybe the PAC Racing 1201???

/awaiting the wrath of the elders. :lol:
That's too much spring for the mechanical flat tappet race cams we make, that turn 7,600rpm.
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by 1980RS »

CamKing wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:07 pm
PackardV8 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 12:34 pm Hi, Mike,

I trust your recommendations, so trying to learn something here. I've been going to beehives whenever possible and have usually found about another 300-500 RPM over same seat pressure cylindrical. Why would we choose the old school cylindrical over the beehive?
The GM cam he's running is the same cam that's used in the GM 602 Crate engines, that are used in circle track racing all across the country.
With that PAC-1210X spring, those 602 crate engines turn 6,400 on a regular basis.
Our "Cheater" 602 Crate cams are more aggressive then the GM cam, and these springs are still stable at 6,400.
They take a stock retainer, which are readily available, and dirt cheap.
Installed at 1.700", they have 87# on the seat, and 220# at .460" lift. I don't know of a beehive spring that installs at 1.700, that would have less.

With that cam, and a 6,000rpm redline, he could even save some money and run the GM #19154761 springs that come in the 602 crate engine.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal- ... 1#overview
Is your cheater cam a flat tappet or a roller cam?
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by CamKing »

1980RS wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 2:38 pm
Is your cheater cam a flat tappet or a roller cam?
The ones we make for the 602 Crate engines are hydraulic flat tappet.
The ones we make for the 604 Crate engines are hydraulic rollers.
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by DCal »

Intech, Is T Willy still with us? Yes he was a character, hung around with Moe Mills.
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by BOOT »

I know CamKing has this but I wanna give it a shot just for kicks.

Cam is sim to Crane H-272 and they say spring kit 11308-1 But they gone, so something like https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-16981-16

GM 12353918, Sum 1103, Jegs 200103, GM 24502476 all also seem very sim.
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by Tom68 »

BOOT wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:06 pm I know CamKing has this but I wanna give it a shot just for kicks.

Cam is sim to Crane H-272 and they say spring kit 11308-1 But they gone, so something like https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-16981-16

GM 12353918, Sum 1103, Jegs 200103, GM 24502476 all also seem very sim.
High spring rate, in my mind if we were turning to 75 that'd keep the hydraulics under control, but since we're not I want to keep the nose pressure down so I can brag about this flat tappet cam still performing 20 years from now.

Screenshot 2023-02-05 152129.jpg
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by BOOT »

Tom68 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 11:27 pm High spring rate, in my mind if we were turning to 75 that'd keep the hydraulics under control, but since we're not I want to keep the nose pressure down so I can brag about this flat tappet cam still performing 20 years from now.
Lower rate than the Crane set

110 seat @ 1.7 according to summit, so 293 open for int, 306 exh
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by In-Tech »

DCal wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 8:33 pm Intech, Is T Willy still with us? Yes he was a character, hung around with Moe Mills.
Shoot, I don't know. I met him when I was at Mallory/Erson in the late 80's early 90's. His cubicle was right behind mine. I'll have to check in with Marco Glush who lived a couple blocks from him at the time, Marco went on to UEM(KB, Icon, silvolite). I remember a couple phone calls that still make me laugh. One was "I don't care if you have been doing this for 30 years...that just means you have been doing it wrong for 30 years" another time, "why don't you put me on the phone with the guy that dialed the phone for you cuz your dumb ass couldn't have figured out how to use a rotary" :lol: :lol: :lol: =D> =D>

Was that Moe from Ross? Ray Akerly and I were talking about how I wanted to try some dykes stuff for a limited 305 app and had me call him to order some pistons. Tell him "RAY SAID blah blah blah, all the dimensions for the ring pack" I'd stop by his shop at Magic Mountain on my way to La land.
Good times =D>

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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by DCal »

Yes that's the same Moe Mills, he and Ken Robles started Ross pistons. I have lots of stories. Some are not so flattering and it would serve no good purpose to air them here, but some are really great. I was in the custom piston business for 42 years so I knew just about everyone else that came and went. Have to wonder how those Dykes rings worked for you because at CP we got the inspection equipment that could really check those grooves and they were horrible. Might be OK for short time usage but not an engine for any long term usage because ,in my opinion, the outer heavy part of the ring caused ring flutter which made the groove wallow out. Remember the HeadLand ring they tried for emissions? that didn't last long.
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by In-Tech »

DCal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:03 pm Yes that's the same Moe Mills, he and Ken Robles started Ross pistons. I have lots of stories. Some are not so flattering and it would serve no good purpose to air them here, but some are really great. I was in the custom piston business for 42 years so I knew just about everyone else that came and went. Have to wonder how those Dykes rings worked for you because at CP we got the inspection equipment that could really check those grooves and they were horrible. Might be OK for short time usage but not an engine for any long term usage because ,in my opinion, the outer heavy part of the ring caused ring flutter which made the groove wallow out. Remember the HeadLand ring they tried for emissions? that didn't last long.
regards Dave
I re-ringed it 3 times that season for the same worry you mentioned. I never saw anything weird. We won the season and sold the truck to move on to super modified 360 2 bl. This was in the 90's so my memory is pretty poor. I want to say the pistons were around 380 grams, and a lightweight tool steel tapered pin from Ferrea. Big holes in the counterweights that were capped off and with the custom convertor I had made, it was very snappy. Like an injected engine, but with a "legal" 4412 2bl :)
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Re: Power doesn't matter, valve springs ?

Post by jsgarage »

Last thing I heard, T Willy moved into assisted living in Carson City, NV after auctioning off all his invaluable cam stuff a few years ago. Marco still lives in n. NV.
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