Where does power come from?

Troy Patterson · Post by **Troy Patterson** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:44 am

How about some thoughts on this: I suspect, but don't have evidence of it yet as my research and develoment was cut short by criminals, but I believe the real power we generate from the enternal combustion engine comes not from the oxidation process (combustin), but from a secondary process oxidizing oxygen molecules initiates.

Didn't Smokey develop something alongs these lines?

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Larry Morgan Jr. · Post by **Larry Morgan Jr.** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:39 am

I've never really heard of a secondary process. The energy in the fuel is released when ignition causes the bonds to seperate and reform with different molecules. I'm not sure for sure exactly which of the processes is endothermic and which is exothermic. That doesn't matter much anyway. What matters is that the rapid release of energy causes the gas in the combustion chamber to expand. This puts pressure on the piston and you know the rest...

Maybe you're talking about something deeper than I'm going?

Greezer · Post by **Greezer** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:18 am

Have a nice day

MadBill · Post by **MadBill** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:08 pm

I Haven't checked those references, but does it have to be complicated? The oxidation reaction of the fuel with the air in the cylinder is exothermic (releases heat). The heat increases the cylinder pressure in accordance with the gas laws and the pressure forces the piston down the bore. Q.E.D.

Troy Patterson · Post by **Troy Patterson** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:30 pm

Larry Morgan Jr. wrote: What matters is that the rapid release of energy causes the gas in the combustion chamber to expand. This puts pressure on the piston and you know the rest...

Maybe you're talking about something deeper than I'm going?

There it is! What is the predominate "gas" in the combustion chamber?

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Procision-Auto · Post by **Procision-Auto** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:48 pm

Interesting topic. I'd like to follow along as well. If we're discussing gas mixtures, should we specify the type of fuel used?

By gas, are you also referring to atmosphere present in the cylinder?

IE: Nitrogen, oxygen, argon and carbon dioxide? I know there are more elements present, but I don't know them off hand (Google!).

MadBill · Post by **MadBill** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:12 pm

Troy Patterson wrote:...There it is! What is the predominate "gas" in the combustion chamber?

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Post-gasoline combustion, the composition is about 72% nitrogen, 20% CO2 and 8% water vapour (with possibly a few percent of CO replacing some CO2, and a smidgen (scientific terminology) of unburned hydrocarbons, oxides of nitrogen and the other tiny fractions of inert atmospheric gases.

Larry Morgan Jr. · Post by **Larry Morgan Jr.** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:20 pm

Troy Patterson wrote:There it is! What is the predominate "gas" in the combustion chamber?

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Well, PERFECT combustion puts off CO2 and Water. So, at that temp, it's steam. However, it's not going to be totally perfect, so there's other by- products in there. And since the air we and engines breath isn't completely oxygen, there's also a lot of nitrogen as MadBill said, CO2, H20 (gas), and everything else in the air.

Now combust it, and you've got even more CO2, the nitrogen's still there, , more H20 (gas), and some by-products (usually carbon monoxide) because you won't have a perfectly stoichiometric mix. That makes up the most of it.. This air is all very hot thanks to the nice controlled explosion that took place and expands like crazy. Viola, chemical energy to mechanical energy at a absurdly inefficient rate.

automotive breath · Post by **automotive breath** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:47 pm

MadBill wrote:...The heat increases the cylinder pressure in accordance with the gas laws and the pressure forces the piston down the bore. Q.E.D.

If there's more to it I'd certainly like to know. I suppose if you were to replace the Nitrogen with a gas that has a more favorable expansion ratio you would see benefits.

Here's a quote from David Vizard with the same conclusion as Bill.

http://www.gofastnews.com/board/technic ... amics.html

"...the pressure on the piston is caused by heating the air and it’s this hot air wanting to expand that pushes the piston down the bore..."

"...it is the heat of combustion expanding the air that supplies the power..."

Troy Patterson · Post by **Troy Patterson** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 2:49 pm

My hypothesis is that the real work is done by the excitement of nitrogen molecules (heating of the air, well nitrogen), not the actual heat generated by the oxidation process.

If this is the case, we can stop looking for the small gains in improving the internal combustion engine, and focus on more perfecting this process for substantial gains in power and efficiency.

We've got to be more specific than saying air - air is made up of many things. With a lack of specificity, there's nothing to work with to make improvements / developments. You've got to look closer.

If this is the case, any number of methods could be used to excite the nitrogen molecules to accomplish exactly the same results as the combustion process - and no doubt more effectively.

I may be off, it may not be nitrogen, it could be a combination of the various gases present or singularly one of the others.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

Procision-Auto · Post by **Procision-Auto** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:04 pm

It's interesting to note the Nitrogen present before and after combustion is nearly identical in percentage.

If an experiment were done in a closed environment (no atmosphere) and pure oxygen was used in place of the atmosphere, what would be the result in power output?

IE: Pure 02, mixed with a pure fuel (methonal)

I don't nominate myself to try this!

Troy Patterson · Post by **Troy Patterson** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:34 pm

Procision-Auto wrote:It's interesting to note the Nitrogen present before and after combustion is nearly identical in percentage.

If an experiment were done in a closed environment (no atmosphere) and pure oxygen was used in place of the atmosphere, what would be the result in power output?

IE: Pure 02, mixed with a pure fuel (methonal)

I don't nominate myself to try this!

I nominate you!! ANy one else?

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

automotive breath · Post by **automotive breath** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:46 pm

Thermal efficiencies in the internal combustion engine are generally in the 25 to 30 percent range. What this means is there is plenty of room for improvement. As we identify methods of better utilizing the heat of combustion to expand the gases and generate useful work this efficiency will go up.

Procision-Auto, try NOs. It's much more user friendly.

Troy Patterson · Post by **Troy Patterson** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:11 pm

automotive breath wrote:Thermal efficiencies in the internal combustion engine are generally in the 25 to 30 percent range. What this means is there is plenty of room for improvement. As we identify methods of better utilizing the heat of combustion to expand the gases and generate useful work this efficiency will go up.

Procision-Auto, try NOs. It's much more user friendly.

I agree totally.

What I am talking about here is on the molecular level. If we pre-heat the incoming atmosphere [excessively] we create an unwanted by-product (oxides of nitrogen) and a reduction in thermal efficiency of the combustion process - not to mention sucking all that heat out thru the cooling system and blowing it out the exhaust.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

2dumb2kwit · Post by **2dumb2kwit** » Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:19 pm

Procision-Auto wrote:It's interesting to note the Nitrogen present before and after combustion is nearly identical in percentage.

If an experiment were done in a closed environment (no atmosphere) and pure oxygen was used in place of the atmosphere, what would be the result in power output?

IE: Pure 02, mixed with a pure fuel (methonal)

I don't nominate myself to try this!

Please excuse me for being dumb, but isn't that just an igniter away from being a tater gun?

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