Where does power come from?

[Windsor377]

If you think about it, it is the "loss of heat" spent on the nitrogen that allows the combustion process to occur in a controled manner.

[MadBill]

Heat is just the vibration of atoms or molecules, the faster the 'hotter'. At absolute zero temperature, this motion stops. The more rapid the vibration, the more inertia the particles transfer to ('push against') any surrounding container, thus creating 'pressure'.
When you have an inert (for the purposes of this discussion) gas like nitrogen intermingled with the compounds reacting in the cylinder, the resultant vibrational energy is distributed among far more molecules, resulting in the same total heat energy, but a much lower temperature, which is less prone to destroying engine components.
If our planet had an atmosphere containing say 30% nitrogen and 70% oxygen, Man would likely still have invented the internal combustion engine, but it might have taken 100 years longer to come up with suitably durable materials.

[NoMoore]

Wow, interesting thread.

Would a good test of this theory be to inject some nitrogen into a motor on the dyno, much like the way you would use nitrous, but without adding fuel?

[Windsor377]

If done to an already well tuned engine, I'm sure the tq and hp curves will nose right over.

[Troy Patterson]

I don't think power would nose over as it is inert - but it would depend how much nitrogen was added.

I wouldn't suggest attempting to develop technology in this way. To do so would add complication and expense to what should simply be refining what already exists.

I have an underlying belief that "God" if you like, or the universe, or Budda or little green men or whatever you wish to attribute it to, has provided exactly what we need without the need to alter it and add complexity.

Nikola Tesla was a genious!!!!!! Not Edison.

Eventually, we'll realize we don't even need to oxidize fuel / oxygen.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Windsor377]

I am sure if an engine is already well tuned and the cylinder gasses are displaced by something other than what the tune up wants AND the things displacing the cylinder gasses are not contributing the release of energy, the tq and hp curves will nose dive.

Likewise, I am sure if the addition of this new "something" adds to the release of energy without a change in the tune up to compensate, then something very bad will happen.

On the other hand, if the tune up is optimized so that the addition of something inert will help to control the combustion then the addition of the inert substance is doing it's job. eg. water injection in a high boost turbo application. Likewise, perhaps, nitrogen in some amount in a situation where the combustion would be uncontrolled if not for the presence of the nitrogen.

jmho.

[Troy Patterson]

Windsor377, you're probably right. I guess I was wondering about how much could be put in without affecting anything since you aren't actually leaning the mixture.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[Troy Patterson]

On second thought Windsor377, adding some amount of nitrogen to the mix would be similar to adding spent gases such as an EGR valve does. In the case of the EGR, it serves to reduce the volume of fresh induction charge causing it to produce less heat. I believe it would be the same in the case of "some" amount of nitrogen - perhaps even a small gain, but again I'd discourage development in that direction as it would add tremendous complexity to actually developing a more efficient internal "nitrogen heating" engine.

We've got lots of smart guys here, how about some comments on adding hydrogen to the combustion process?

I've heard / read it improves combustion efficiency thereby increasing power and improving gas mileage. At the same time, I've heard it argues that suggesting that adding a small amount of hydrogen to the combustion process is akin to a perpetual motion machine.

How about the effects of some amount of added hydrogen to the combustion process of a racing application??

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[2dumb2kwit]

O.K., I'm kinda slow. Are you saying replace some of the nitrogen with something that has a greater expansion rate when heated? (I don't know if hydrogen does or does not have that, I'm just not that smart.)

[MadBill]

Adding hydrogen in tiny quantities is being sold to Big Rig diesel operators as a mileage enhancer. It is generated by electrolysis using the vehicle's electrical system.
I have seen extensive data from the University of Saskatchewan re GM (originally gasoline) pick up trucks operating on hydrogen/methane (natural gas) fuel mixes and I can tell everyone there is absolutely NO magic going on with mixes anywhere from 5% up to 100% hydrogen.

Not to disparage alternative medicine, but in these schemes the percentage is so small I call it "homeopathic hydrogen".

[Troy Patterson]

As I said before, due to unfair business practices being used to destroy my young and fast growing carburetor / R&D business in 2001-2002, my own research on the subject matter came to a screeching halt, but my underlying hypothesis on this issue is that the oxidation of fuel (gasoline) and oxygen produces the "explosive" force by exciting nitrogen molecules (it appears).

In the case of a rocket going into space, there would be extremely little nitrogen, so this hypothesis doesn't appear to hold true, at least in spacer. But what is "rocket fuel" comprised of? I guess I could do a Google search.

In the case of jet engines or pulse engines, what interesting devices. Does a "pulse" make more power as a result of cooling between "combustion processes" - if you can call it that?

I guess I'm thinking out loud and want to stimulate thought and debate on the topic.

I'll definitely have to do more research.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs

[automotive breath]

Adding H2 to hydro-carbon fuel is done with gas fired turbine generations, the hydrogen drastically improves flammability. The primary reason this is done with the turbines is for reductions in emissions and fuel consumption. The H2 allows combustion at a much lower temperature, the flame temp is lowered just before the point of flame out with excess oxygen. The result is reduction of HC and NOx to almost nothing.

The same could be done with a SI engine. The H2 would allow lean mixture without lean burn misfire.

As for rocket fuel:

"For launch the space shuttle uses 2 systems: the main engines in the orbiter that burn hydrogen and oxygen from the external tank (the great big orange cylinder that the orbiter is attached to for launch); and the SRBs (Solid Rocket Boosters) that burn a solid rocket propellant that is a mixture of powdered aluminum and ammonium perchlorate. These are used only for launch. The orbiter (what most people think of as "the Space Shuttle") has two propulsion systems: OMS (Orbital Maneuvering System) used to change orbit and to return to earth, and the RCS (Reaction Control System) used for station-keeping and attitude control.
Both systems burn hydrazine with oxygen."

[Larry Morgan Jr.]

Heat is just the vibration of atoms or molecules, the faster the 'hotter'. At absolute zero temperature, this motion stops. The more rapid the vibration, the more inertia the particles transfer to ('push against') any surrounding container, thus creating 'pressure'.
When you have an inert (for the purposes of this discussion) gas like nitrogen intermingled with the compounds reacting in the cylinder, the resultant vibrational energy is distributed among far more molecules, resulting in the same total heat energy, but a much lower temperature, which is less prone to destroying engine components.
If our planet had an atmosphere containing say 30% nitrogen and 70% oxygen, Man would likely still have invented the internal combustion engine, but it might have taken 100 years longer to come up with suitably durable materials.

Off topic a bit, but crazy things have happened when things get near absolute zero. We have 5 known states of matter now because of it. The one near absolute zero being the Bose-Einstein Condensate. In a few experiments with thing in the nanokelvin range, atoms have imploded together and "disappeared"

And nobody knows for sure what happens at exactly absolute zero... If you use modern equations and quantum theory, since matter is made of energy, you lose all energy. So, the matter ceases to exist, which goes against the law of conservation of energy...

[MadBill]

And I thought I was at the egg-head end of the spectrum here...

-guess it's safe to assume they didn't use a Lucas refrigerator in that experiment...

[Troy Patterson]

Off topic a bit, but crazy things have happened when things get near absolute zero. We have 5 known states of matter now because of it. The one near absolute zero being the Bose-Einstein Condensate. In a few experiments with thing in the nanokelvin range, atoms have imploded together and "disappeared"

And nobody knows for sure what happens at exactly absolute zero... If you use modern equations and quantum theory, since matter is made of energy, you lose all energy. So, the matter ceases to exist, which goes against the law of conservation of energy...

Very interesting. That leads me to the following.

It appears the difference in the temperature of the nitrogen upon induction into the combustion chamber verses the temperature it is heated to by way of the oxidation process, is significant. It's the percentage change.

I'll break it down a little further. Heat means molecular activity, so it is the amount of this activity at the start point - as ingested, relative to the peak point of activity following / during combustion that determines power out put. Now, that may sound as though I am saying the bigger and hotter the combustion process, the more power out put, but I'm not. If that were the case, lean running engines generating maximum heat would be the way to go for making maximum horsepower.

I know, that sounds about right, but it isn't. What I am trying to get at, is that the focus should be on molecular activity, not on generating heat - per say. Simply to look at generating heat, via oxidation is effective, but also crude, and pretty much is where most engines exist now.

Think in terms of molecular activity.

Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs