hone w/torque plate vs. no torque plate

[AdioSS]

I guess my question is after measuring more than a few blocks with a head bolted on or a plate bolted on is why the hell would any place calling itself a performance machine shop not use torque plates?

How many different kinds of engine blocks does the average shop work on?
How much does a torque plate cost? Do you have iron plates for iron head engines and aluminum plates for alum head engines?
If you specialize in a few of the more common engines, then it makes sense to have plates for each.

I have been told that if you simply torque down some washers instead of using a complete plate that you will get most of the benefits of the plates.

[CNC BLOCKS]

I have been told that if you simply torque down some washers instead of using a complete plate that you will get most of the benefits of the plates.

If it was just that easy as we see from using different gaskets on the 350 OEM blocks makes a differance and just using washers I really don't think it will cut it.

[MRE]

Does anyone have any data or practical experience to support the merit of torque plate use on the GM LS series blocks? With the head bolts seemingly isolated from the cylinder walls, I wonder if this might be a block which suffers little or no bore distortion from the fasteners. Just wondering if I have to buy a LS1 torque plate or not.

[FloydODB]

sometimes the area effected isnt always near the bolt holes. SBF's tend to distort the middle of the cylinder also. there is no denying that once you see the distortion with a dial bore gauge you'll understand the importance of the simulation. remember for evry .001 in cylinder demension is .003+ in ring gap. ...I think that's right....where's my coffee

[Hendrens Racing Engines]

I don't think anyone would waste the time.with bore distortion of up to .005 without a plate the 30/40 % leak down at TDC tells it all.Bill

what are your numbers based on?

There based on 40 years experience and recently a 428 aluminum block engine built by a big name builder. The customer took it to Tom Pritt in West Virginia to dyno it after it didn't produce the power he wanted in the car. when Tom made a pass he noticed a lot of blowby and ran a leakdown test. it varied between 30/40 % at tdc and 2/3% at bdc. Tom sent the customer to my shop and we looked at the bores.there were the tel tale signs on the cyl walls that the block hadn't been honed with a plate. we installed a plate with the same gasket that had been installed on the engine and the bores were pulled in .005 at each bolt hole.

Every engine no matter how thick the walls or deck distorts around the bolt holes to some extent.in any race motor there is absolutely no excuse for not using a plate.
Using just washers is a joke, the fire ring on the gasket is responsible for most of the distortion.Bill

[Wolfplace]

I guess my question is after measuring more than a few blocks with a head bolted on or a plate bolted on is why the hell would any place calling itself a performance machine shop not use torque plates?

How many different kinds of engine blocks does the average shop work on?
How much does a torque plate cost? Do you have iron plates for iron head engines and aluminum plates for alum head engines?
If you specialize in a few of the more common engines, then it makes sense to have plates for each.

I have been told that if you simply torque down some washers instead of using a complete plate that you will get most of the benefits of the plates.

=
I guess it depends on how long you have been doing this as to how many different engines you have seen
I have seen my share in the last 40+ years
And let's just say I have a lot of money tied up in plates.

I do not care what the plate costs, if I am going to do a block that should have one I am going to have a plate.

I do not use aluminum plates, I have not found any measurable difference in bore distortion in the few I have compared.

Bolts & washers:
Been there, done that a long time ago & it ain't so, even the gasket used makes a measurable difference in some cases
I think this was probably started by people to cheap to buy or to lazy to use plates,

[RCJ]

Years ago when I started dirt track raceing we used the cheapest rings and pistons and no plates average of 15% leakage.We never got more than 15 race out of those motors without something breaking.Moved up to moly rings and better machining ,but no plate,10% leakage.After 25 races it would start to push alot of oil out the breathers after a race and we would rebuild it.When we finally made it to J-E pistons,total seal rings and a plate 3% leakage.I still rebuilt them after 25 races but, there was no oil blowing out the breathers.I decided to run one till it started having alot of blow by, at 35 races it blew the main web out of the block.This was a 575hp 350 chevy

[needforspeed66gt]

Does anyone have any data or practical experience to support the merit of torque plate use on the GM LS series blocks? With the head bolts seemingly isolated from the cylinder walls, I wonder if this might be a block which suffers little or no bore distortion from the fasteners. Just wondering if I have to buy a LS1 torque plate or not.

We do a decent amount of performance 4 valve 4.6L Ford motors, which are very similar in design - there was no measurable difference in the cylinders with/without the torque plate(honed them with the plate, on removal the readings were exact same), but the cylinder could still be distorting in a way that is not easily measured with a dial bore gauge, so we use the plate all the time. There is an AERA TSB that speaks of the absolute importance of TQ plate honing these motors for proper ring seal.

We TQ plate hone the LS motors too, although no measurements have been made looking for distortion on that specific block.

Aluminum plates, same fasteners and gaskets that will be used.

[kmws]

What works for me is boring and honing with a torque plate it comes out really straight.

[PackardV8]

What works for me is boring and honing with a torque plate it comes out really straight.

Good to know nothing has changed in the thirteen years since this thread was begun.

[Stan Weiss]

Does anyone have any information about hot honing?

Stan

[PackardV8]

Does anyone have any information about hot honing?Stan

Again, been covered here several times. I don't have anything first hand, but second hand, the shops I knew who tried it gave it up as too time consuming and too much hassle. Sealing up the block took time as did circulating hot water long enough to get the block hot preparatory to honing, then heating the honing fluid, made for a time-consuming steamy mess and was even blamed for some respiratory problems in the shops. Their excuse for giving it up was the improvement over conventional honing with a plate was too slight for the problems it caused in implementation.

[Stan Weiss]

Jack,
Thanks. My understand is that it is done for NHRA 500 ci Pro Stock engines. I would guess if there is any HP to be gained for them cost does not matter.

Stan

[pdq67]

You telling me that a, "dingle-berry", hone job and a couple of good shakes from a can of, "Comet", down each bore is out!!

pdq67

[MadBill]

Congrats on your tenth anniversary as a Speed Talker pdq!