Valve seat machine questions

[redc4]

Guys, first of all let me just say what a great forum this is.

I am an amature head ported who ports mainly for myself in my spare time. I currently have a superflow flowbench, but no valve seat machine. I am looking for something relatively inexpensive that can accept serdi or sunnen style cutters so that I can do my own valve jobs for experimentation purposes. Maybe something older that I can adapt the multiangle cutter blades to.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Also if there are certain machines I should stay away from, please advise.

Thanks guys

[maxracesoftware]

i would buy a Vertical Mill , preferbly 9 x 49 or 10 x 52? table

then purchase Atlas brand Serdi style Tool Holders to
mill Intake and Exhaust seats

then buy Goodson Tool Holders to mill various bottom cuts.

the Atlas Tool Holders support the Serdi style insert lower and directly across the Serdi insert better than the Goodson 3D Tool Holders

but the Goodson 3D Tool Holders have greater distance between the top of the Ball-Drive to the position of the Serdi cutter insert, thus able to cut at a lower depth like in bottom and Bowl cuts for the "same" depth setting on the Vertical Mill

you would also buy the Atlas R8 Ball-Drive for vertical mill,
the Atlas Ball-Drive would drive both the Atlas and Goodson type
Tool Holders

besides just being dedicated to cutting valve jobs,
a Vertical Mill can do all sorts of various jobs around the Machine Shop
like FlyCutting Pistons, Milling Intake and Block sides of Heads or Intake Manifolds, and countless other jobs

if you buy a Serdi type Machine..its mostly used only for a single operation
..that type of Machine is not the most cost-effective

[turbo54]

...I agree completely with the vertical mill idea.

However, you can purchase a setup to do valvejobs with stones for not too too much money, and once you've gained some experience, I'd put a good stone job such as kwik-way up against ANY Serdi.

...Not to mention you are supporting the French when you buy a Serid.

F the french.

[maxracesoftware]

However, you can purchase a setup to do valvejobs with stones for not too too much money, and once you've gained some experience, I'd put a good stone job such as kwik-way up against ANY Serdi.

yes i would too !!

the new Serdi i used to use, 4 or 5 of the seats would need touchup
with Stones.... note=> i'm usually always milling raw seat inserts on brand new heads and most always installing large valve OD relative to the OEM out the box seat insert ...so sometimes the Serdi left chatter
or ground the seat off a little, you went back and hit the seats with Stones

yes you can do a great valve job with Stones and with a Valve Depth fixture
but its much time consuming and will definetly wear out your valve grinder
and its drive due especially to trying to cut those bottom cuts even with bounce springs.

using a Vertical Mill and a Serdi style Tool Holder/Cutter combination allows you to quickly and much more accurately mill the valve job seat widths/depths + or - .001 or better accuracy

a small Shop has more TIME than MONEY
and a Vertical Mill will take more time than a Serdi, but will be miles cheaper overall in Price

PS- i'm Cajun French ... Meaux is pronounced like "MOE"
and i wouldn't buy anything from France either !!!

[Wolfplace]

I still have stones in the off chance someone brings in a flathead ford & wants the seats done,, but I haven't used them in probably 10 years for anything much more than this, I use the "hated" Serdi & have for about 12 years now & personally I am quite fond of it.

I personally feel every new machinist should learn to use stones before ever touching a Serdi, Newen or Sunnen but that has very little to do with which I feel is "better"

I have had excellent repeatability with the Serdi & in all these years I have stuck a pilot maybe a half dozen times & I use alcohol as a lubricant / coolant to keep the mess down as it evaporates very cleanly.
I have never had a problem hurting a guide with chips.
I must admit this was a big concern to me when I bought the machine but it has not been a problem.

I do quite a bit of 4 valve stuff for other shops in the area & do not have a problem with concentricity but it does take a bit of "finesse" to get them right.
The biggest problem I have had with the Serdi is the one Darin brought up regarding the canted valve heads in a previous post a while back but I do not do enough of these for it to be anything I can't live with.
The biggest complaint I have is the amount of money I have in pilots
You need a ton of them in .0002" increments to keep runout to a minimum.

In the end I feel it still comes down to the operator of the machine & I will agree that the Serdi has it's weak points just as any machine I have used does but used correctly it will do an excellent job.

I played with quite a few machines at PRI & the AERA shows both before & after buying the Serdi & the only one I have considered is the Newen but I can't justify the expense as I seem to be able to do just as good with what I have although the Newen looks to be a much better deal especially with the small guide stuff.

Now, to the original question,,, for an older dedicated seat & guide machine I think one of the best older machines is probably the Tobin Arp which appears to be a Sunnen VGS without the trick head.
I don't know if the newer tooling will retrofit to it so this could be an issue & I am sure someone here can answer this, but the VGS is pretty much a knockoff of this old machine from what I can see, just not as purdy

[engineczar]

[quote="maxracesoftware"]then purchase Atlas brand Serdi style Tool Holders to
mill Intake and Exhaust seats[/quote]

Where would you purchase Atlas brand?

[cboggs]

Larry,

On your mill do you have an air float table & roll over fixture for heads???

A shop I worked at years agao had a mill set up like this and I LOVED it.
Valve jobs took longer then my Serdi but the machine did everything.
I could cut push rod clearence, .. spot face bolt holes, .. cut bolt
holes on rolled deck heads, .. all on the same machine.

Also on stuff where I used to move the valve guide, .. it was easy to
do on that machine with a DRO, ..

I'd like to have another but haven't
found the air float & roll over table to put on a mill.

Curtis

[mike_belben]

i think you can make a rollover table that incorporates airfloat without too much trouble. im starting one this week, although in my case it doesnt need to cant like how yours would, so that does add a big element to it.

curious about the smallest seat runout factor anyone can consistently achieve with untapered pilots and stones?

[PWMAX]

Hey guys, new guy here, just found this sight, and its pretty good, not like the usual highschool arguing and ego contests. I recognized curtis from one other sight I joined. Anyhow, I was replying in regards to the Tobin -Arp machine. thats what I use. Its a VGS-20000. Sound familiar? Well, Sunnen bought out Tobing Arp in the early 80's I believe it was, and then they made a few minor improvements to Tobin-Arp's design. Kinda like Rottlers new seat and guide center, thats the newest Kwik-Way machine. I had the chance to use the new Kwik-way, and loved it, and I was going to buy one till Rottler bought the design, and now added about $8000 to the price . Anyhow, I LOVE the tobin-Arp. I wish it was a VGS-20 for a few reason, mainly variable speed, but otherwise, the Tobin Arp works EXACTLY like a VGS-20. As far as flexibility and speed, this machine is WAY more versatile and faster to do various jobs than a Serdi. For example. you Can core drill for .500 od giudes, install them, re-level, cut for seat inserts, then final size the guides with the Sunnen hone- All, or ream if you so choose to do it that way(stock stuff). Have your cutters already set, cut your seats, then roll the head over, cut spring seats, and for pc type seals, (on a stock type head), then install some helicoils if you need to, its way slick for putting heli-coils in heads. You can drill and tap on it, you can use it to assemble 4 valve honda, Talon etc type heads. It is versatile. And yes, all the latest vgs sunnen stuff works, thats what we use. You can also buy an adapter to put in the seat cutter holder, that allows the Serdi/Newan style replaceable blades. It is an accurate machine, with good carbide pilots and a sharp bit, and once you get the feel for it, it will cut very concentric seats with very little chatter. I almost always "touch" the seats with a finish stone , which really dials them in, not necessary, but I just do it to feel better about it. It only takes a few extra minutes anyhow. We have a sioux stone seat grinding set and a Kwik-way, and, I actualy use them quite often, not even bothering to set up the machine. many times on freshen ups, or to correct some poorly machined seats, or stock type heads, its just easier. I do agree about the speed though, from installing bigger vlaves, or cutting raw seat inserts on un-finished new heads, it would take you FOREVER to do it woth stones. I for sure would buy a used stone set-up, either a Kwik-way, or Sioux, for an "enthusiast" to do valve jobs in your garage. Anyhow, sorry to ramble, I tend to do that at times, anyhow, just a little more info on the subject.


Frank
Advanced performance
www.get-ap.com

[maxracesoftware]

then purchase Atlas brand Serdi style Tool Holders to
mill Intake and Exhaust seats

Where would you purchase Atlas brand?

Atlas Shop Supplies 800-241-0936

Goodson Tools & Supplies 800-533-8010

Links to various Pictures of the Atlas and Goodson Tool Holders

the 2 lower left are the Atlas Tool Holders (Large / Small)
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Atlas_Go ... 00x600.jpg

Atlas closeup, notice the lower-support for the Insert which is better than the Goodson 3D
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Atlas_In ... 00x600.jpg

Goodson's "Large Tool Holder" (middle)is the only one that has lower-support across the Insert like the Atlas Tool Holders
http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Goodson_ ... iler_1.jpg


http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Goodson_ ... ters_V.jpg

http://www.maxracesoftware.com/Atlas_Se ... Collet.jpg

Larry,
On your mill do you have an air float table & roll over fixture for heads???

i have an air-float rollover fixture,
but i just use the Storm-Vulcan Fixture on my Vertical Mill
no matter if its a Hemi, Pentroof, Canted, or Wedge Head
the Cyl Head "always" remains dead level to the Table
in the lengthwise axis, and the Vertical Mill's Head is tilted instead.
on the other axis, across the width of the Head, then the Storm-Vulcan Fixture is tilted to level in that axis.

with the Head perfectly level to the Table,
the valve depth is setup at 1 height no matter if its Canted,Hemi,Pentroof

seats are cut all to same depths + or - .001 or better if you want to
and double checked with a Fixture across the Cyl Head
located of either the Int or Exh valve guides

i keep a NoteBook of all the Cyl Head's valve depths
so i dulpicate any Head to another if one is damaged.
also chamber CC's are very close to each other
when you use a Valve Depth Fixture and Serdi style Tool Holders/Cutters


seats are cut at 60 RPM initially,
then the switch is turned off/on quickly at the very last of the cut,
which cuts about 10 to 20 RPM,

then the very final cut is done by hand turning the Drive-Bar
with a 1/2 ratchet and socket,
this gives a perfect, concentric , and chatter free seat,
the ratchet is turned very slowly by hand, till the cutter "sparks out",
or other words, quits cutting.

also the bounce spring is of very good tension
against the Tool Holder, that also aids in the quality of the cut.

[Guest]

Larry don,t you find that the spring has influnce on the tooling when you are cutting for the seat.I,am in the process off having rottler build tooling to fit my kwik way machine(witch is a copy of the T&S MACHINE).The tooling requers no spring at all and from what i saw at PRI it cut seats with run out of .0003.I ask this because i feel that when you get heads with valve guides that stick up in the port and the spring will not sit flat that it tends to push the toll holder to the side.I have tight my tool holders up to .0008 clearance to the pilot to control that slop.I did a set of heads the other day that seam to have softer type seats and no matter what i did i could not get run out better the .0015.I can normaly keep them around .0008 to .001.

[maxracesoftware]

The tooling requers no spring at all and from what i saw at PRI it cut seats with run out of .0003.I ask this because i feel that when you get heads with valve guides that stick up in the port and the spring will not sit flat that it tends to push the toll holder to the side.

the spring's ID i have fit the Pilot very close
and have pilot bushings on either end,
the spring end ontop of the valve guide might
move around some, but the spring/bushing has straightened out
by approx half its length towards the Tool Holder,
i find just the opposite with the way i'm cutting the seats, the spring tension keeps the Tool Holder's GimBall firmly against the
Ball-Drive for the correct valve seat depth.

cutting the last .0005 to.001" valve seat depth by rotating the Drive-Bar/Tool Holder slowly by 1/2 Ratchet, gets seats to concentricity of .0005" or much better

i think the real trick is the custom made alignment bar that slips into
R8 Collet/Ball-Drive's hole tightly, then alignment is made
when a very tight fitting sleeve can be freely moved up and down
the custom bar and the Pilot, and any other tiny misalignment is accounted for by the Ball-Drive , this all helps in seat concentricity,
along with good spring tension, and cutting the last .0005" to .001"
by hand at very slow steady action with Ratchet ontop of the Vertical Mill's Draw/Drive-Bar

[Dave Koehler]

For you fellows using the vertical mill without an air float table.
I was wondering.
1: How do you line up on the guide after you have the head and mill head leveled the way you want?
Is this an eyeball deal? IE, touch down with the socket to the tool holder ball until it looks like there is no "push" one way or the other? Or some other method?

2: Is there enough "cushion" in the ball/socket arrangement to allow for slight leveling or misalignment errors?

3: This kind of relates to #2. Are you leveling off each guide in situations where the guides might not be exactly in the same plane?

Thanks
Dave Koehler
www.koehlerinjection.com

[maxracesoftware]

For you fellows using the vertical mill without an air float table.
I was wondering.
1: How do you line up on the guide after you have the head and mill head leveled the way you want?
Is this an eyeball deal? IE, touch down with the socket to the tool holder ball until it looks like there is no "push" one way or the other? Or some other method?

2: Is there enough "cushion" in the ball/socket arrangement to allow for slight leveling or misalignment errors?

3: This kind of relates to #2. Are you leveling off each guide in situations where the guides might not be exactly in the same plane?

i use the 12" Starret Level and Straightedge that came with the Storm Vulcan...the Straight Edge is clamped to (2) KwikWay 7/16 top
Pilots inserted in 2 end Intake valve guides if i cutting Intake seats,
or 2 end Exhaust valve guides if i'm cutting exhaust seats
whether Canted, Hemi, Pentroof, Wedge
then use a 2" Dial Indicator mounted off the Vertical mill that will
run across the top length of the Straightedge to "dead-level" the
Cyl Head to the Table to zero tolerance, along the lengthwise axis.

after the Cyl head is dead-level to the Table, install a .001 or .002
tighter fitting Pilot that will stick up higher in the valve guide,
Tilt the Vertical Mill's head in the lengthwise axis if you need to
to get perfect angle between the Mill's Column and the Guide's Pilot's edge. next tilt the Head Fixture in the other plane to level in that axis
against the Guide's Pilot.

then use a custom made alignment bar that fits tightly inside the
Ball-Drive's hole ...move Ball-Drive Machined Bar over Pilot, then drop over the Pilot a tight but free fitting sleeve...alignment is made when you can freely move the sleeve up and down over both the alignment bar and the pilot after the Mill's Table is locked down in both directions.
this way there will be no "push" in one plane or the other by the Ball-Drive, alignment will be very near perfect evidenced by the Seat Depths coming out the same and the seat concentricity.

sometimes you will have to change your setup due to poor valve guide
machining and locations in some manufactured Heads,
with the Sleeve-Alignment Bar setup, you catch this , and go back and adjust head's setup....but that can throw off the seat depths slightly, thats where a Valve Seat height fixture comes in handy, with the Fixture you go back and establish the correct seat depth no matter if the guide is off

its a bunch easier to actually do then sit here and Type about .

[SWB]

I got rid of the bounce-spring/ball-head arrangement alltogether and made my own cutter bodies that actually chuck into the machine. Since doing that, it's been about 100% better getting a chatter-free seat. Your setup becomes critical though and air-float is a definate necessity.

I also turn about 700RPM, (yes, seven hundred not seventy). The best speed changes for valve diameter and seat material, but that's about the average. I can get super-clean seats that way and it doesn't dull your insert too quickly either. I've tried going slowly like everyone else here seems to do and it does work OK, but it works quite a bit better going faster. You can't do that on most guide and seat machines though.

SWB