Is there a limit to head flow
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head flow
The 114 centers DO NOT WORK with low compression in a high powered dragrace engine.In all of my engine building experiance, the tighter centers always made the most HP.Somewhere around 14 to one or higher, then the 114 or more start to look good.
JOE SHERMAN RACING ENGINES
JOE SHERMAN RACING ENGINES
See Joe I do learn!! I will after all this be turning to EFI at the same time a EFI dealer has made me a offer I cant turn down. It will give me data logging and help making adjustments easier for the week long drive I do in this car every year, in a wide varitey of temps and weather conditions along the way.
2007 HotRod Drag Week Winner SB/NA
2012 HotRod Drag Week Winner SS SB/NA
Fastest/Quickest Small Block N/A
Stock Suspension Car on Drag Week since 2007
9.67@ 139 with a 1.42 60' thru the Mufflers Dot tires
Thanks RFD Heads and Intakes
2012 HotRod Drag Week Winner SS SB/NA
Fastest/Quickest Small Block N/A
Stock Suspension Car on Drag Week since 2007
9.67@ 139 with a 1.42 60' thru the Mufflers Dot tires
Thanks RFD Heads and Intakes
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Is there a limit to head flow
Thanks for the advice roller.
I've been Mr. Cordial and Nice, bigger and more mature, always taking the high road my entire life, and I have been beaten to hell because of dumb ass jerks like what I encountered at sbf tech with you know who.
It ain't bashin', I'm telling it like it is.
I don't know where you grew up, but growing up in the country I did, the United States of America in a nice small town, if I acted anything like those people, or the ones over at the mercury cougar flophouse, I'd expect never to be respected or do business with anyone again - a bit like hitting the eject button on business and life. I would be frowned on and shun by people. That's the reality, like it or not!
Personally I could care less if you or any one patronized me, technically, I'm not even in the business any longer, I'm in the film industry. I was a nice little boy keeping my month shut running my race carb shop and nearly died for it, lost my fast growing business I'd invested years in of my life and pretty much everything else and suffering the consequences of it for years now because of criminal bullshitting lairs, so I don't give a rats ass and I've got every right to speak of my experience.
If they wanted people to play nice with them, they shouldn't have resorted to bashing me or anyone else, they could have kept it professional - but obviously they were incapable.
Maybe, they weren't smart enough to realize there were consequences to that kind of behavior - makes one question their cognitive abilities for cams or whatever.
P.S. roller - you've got no place to stand, ask or demand professional courtesy in a public forum for a person who does not give it. You know who I'm talking about!
Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs
I've been Mr. Cordial and Nice, bigger and more mature, always taking the high road my entire life, and I have been beaten to hell because of dumb ass jerks like what I encountered at sbf tech with you know who.
It ain't bashin', I'm telling it like it is.
I don't know where you grew up, but growing up in the country I did, the United States of America in a nice small town, if I acted anything like those people, or the ones over at the mercury cougar flophouse, I'd expect never to be respected or do business with anyone again - a bit like hitting the eject button on business and life. I would be frowned on and shun by people. That's the reality, like it or not!
Personally I could care less if you or any one patronized me, technically, I'm not even in the business any longer, I'm in the film industry. I was a nice little boy keeping my month shut running my race carb shop and nearly died for it, lost my fast growing business I'd invested years in of my life and pretty much everything else and suffering the consequences of it for years now because of criminal bullshitting lairs, so I don't give a rats ass and I've got every right to speak of my experience.
If they wanted people to play nice with them, they shouldn't have resorted to bashing me or anyone else, they could have kept it professional - but obviously they were incapable.
Maybe, they weren't smart enough to realize there were consequences to that kind of behavior - makes one question their cognitive abilities for cams or whatever.
P.S. roller - you've got no place to stand, ask or demand professional courtesy in a public forum for a person who does not give it. You know who I'm talking about!
Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs
Last edited by Troy Patterson on Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:06 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: head flow
Joes never run one of my carbs!bigjoe1 wrote:The 114 centers DO NOT WORK with low compression in a high powered dragrace engine.In all of my engine building experiance, the tighter centers always made the most HP.Somewhere around 14 to one or higher, then the 114 or more start to look good.
JOE SHERMAN RACING ENGINES
Troy Patterson TMPCarbs.net TMP Carbs
I just want to say Thanks Jeff as I have seen you stick up for me. The crud at the other forum was just that. I will say, w/o the information I need, even you have agreed that we could not get it together. I am sorry that this is how I make my living and there are too many trolls who just want free information. You are NOT one of them, do not misconstrue or infer. But Jeff, if you do not agree with the way I do business, that's cool, we can agree to disagree. Grown adults can do this and C'est la Vie! Such is life! LOL But as many of my good customers will tell you, the more you work with me, the more I work with you. Its all about gaining each other's respect. Once that feeling is mutual, things change. But THANKS again!
To mr. troy. I am sorry you did not like it over at the ford site. But Patrick at Pro Systems is my guy with carburetors. That is the first thing that you could not come to grips with. You then came in and spammed the board just like in this thread. Asking Joe Sherman has he ever run one of your carbs. Same story, different place. You were run off because of your spamming. I can get bthe board owner to come in here and support this. Even one of your BEST customers came on the board and told you that you were wrong for what you were doing and then he sent me ALL of the PM's you sent him. troy patterson, you are a class act! If you think high of me or low of me, it is of no consequence.
Now onto some cam stuff! I look at cams differently than has been discussed in this thread. I look at the opening & closing events. I design a cam based upon what I feel the engine needs. I adjust the cam lift according to the parameters laid out by the customer (P-V, springs avaialbe, I/H, skill level, rocker type, etc) and then move the .200" numbers, .300" numbers, etc to get the cranking where I want it. Obviously the knowledgeable guys in realize that an aggressive lobe cranks higher than a slower lobe. A faster or slower lash flank will change the cranking as you move the valve lash around from a looser or tighter HOT setting from what the lobe was designed for. Manipulating HOT lash becomes a fine tuning tool. It would be pretty easy to design a lobe that with only 11.3:1 would detonate on C-12 fuel. Now why someone would do this isn't practical, I just said to show that while low compression isn't desirable in a racing engine, there are ways to get the engine to accelerate quicker because of cylinder pressure. And as you guys also are aware of, the dyno may not show this but the ET clocks sure will.
It comes back to the events. The 2 intake events make intake centerline. The 2 exhaust events make exhaust centerline. Asymmetrical lobes effect this a tiny bit. The result of those centerlines is the LSA. It is my opinion that when you "just change the LSA" that is an incorrect statement. You cannot change "just the LSA" w/o effecting the cam events at least on side. Thus the entire thought process on the camshaft has changed. Once I have the events where they need to be (in my humble opinion) then the centerlines and the LSA are calculated, not designed.
Cboggs does awesome head work. I enjoy talking with Ed and reading his thoughts. Hell, I grew up following Joe Sherman. Lots of great people in here! I just look at things a bit differently.
Thanks for the opportunity to post.
To mr. troy. I am sorry you did not like it over at the ford site. But Patrick at Pro Systems is my guy with carburetors. That is the first thing that you could not come to grips with. You then came in and spammed the board just like in this thread. Asking Joe Sherman has he ever run one of your carbs. Same story, different place. You were run off because of your spamming. I can get bthe board owner to come in here and support this. Even one of your BEST customers came on the board and told you that you were wrong for what you were doing and then he sent me ALL of the PM's you sent him. troy patterson, you are a class act! If you think high of me or low of me, it is of no consequence.
Now onto some cam stuff! I look at cams differently than has been discussed in this thread. I look at the opening & closing events. I design a cam based upon what I feel the engine needs. I adjust the cam lift according to the parameters laid out by the customer (P-V, springs avaialbe, I/H, skill level, rocker type, etc) and then move the .200" numbers, .300" numbers, etc to get the cranking where I want it. Obviously the knowledgeable guys in realize that an aggressive lobe cranks higher than a slower lobe. A faster or slower lash flank will change the cranking as you move the valve lash around from a looser or tighter HOT setting from what the lobe was designed for. Manipulating HOT lash becomes a fine tuning tool. It would be pretty easy to design a lobe that with only 11.3:1 would detonate on C-12 fuel. Now why someone would do this isn't practical, I just said to show that while low compression isn't desirable in a racing engine, there are ways to get the engine to accelerate quicker because of cylinder pressure. And as you guys also are aware of, the dyno may not show this but the ET clocks sure will.
It comes back to the events. The 2 intake events make intake centerline. The 2 exhaust events make exhaust centerline. Asymmetrical lobes effect this a tiny bit. The result of those centerlines is the LSA. It is my opinion that when you "just change the LSA" that is an incorrect statement. You cannot change "just the LSA" w/o effecting the cam events at least on side. Thus the entire thought process on the camshaft has changed. Once I have the events where they need to be (in my humble opinion) then the centerlines and the LSA are calculated, not designed.
Cboggs does awesome head work. I enjoy talking with Ed and reading his thoughts. Hell, I grew up following Joe Sherman. Lots of great people in here! I just look at things a bit differently.
Thanks for the opportunity to post.
Jay Allen
CAMSHAFT INNOVATIONS
www.camshaftinnovations.com
CAMSHAFT INNOVATIONS
www.camshaftinnovations.com
I just would like to know next time if its a 114 degree cam or a 106 or close to a 110 I dont mind paying if its what I need. I can say it has made me learn alot about cams in the last year. But like everything I learn it opens more questions for me to look for answers about.
Glad to see you Jay PM me you thoughts if you would on what I have if you get the time and what I need.
Glad to see you Jay PM me you thoughts if you would on what I have if you get the time and what I need.
2007 HotRod Drag Week Winner SB/NA
2012 HotRod Drag Week Winner SS SB/NA
Fastest/Quickest Small Block N/A
Stock Suspension Car on Drag Week since 2007
9.67@ 139 with a 1.42 60' thru the Mufflers Dot tires
Thanks RFD Heads and Intakes
2012 HotRod Drag Week Winner SS SB/NA
Fastest/Quickest Small Block N/A
Stock Suspension Car on Drag Week since 2007
9.67@ 139 with a 1.42 60' thru the Mufflers Dot tires
Thanks RFD Heads and Intakes
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I just noticed the post before mine has been altered. You had 4 cams at 114* not work? Bigjoe should have never tried to help! I always laugh at people that try to save money and time using the Internet and people you don't know?
My question is: Why call a very good engine builder(Bigjoe) and not listen? Did he try and sell you something? I have talked to him a few times and never had that ever.
The knowledge on the Internet is amazing, you still have to use common sense as with anything!
My question is: Why call a very good engine builder(Bigjoe) and not listen? Did he try and sell you something? I have talked to him a few times and never had that ever.
The knowledge on the Internet is amazing, you still have to use common sense as with anything!
GURU is only a name.
Adam
Adam
You need to reread the post. I have not bought 4, 114 * cams. I talked to Joe after the last one I got. If you are not told what the cam is, you wont know till you open the box, that is if it has a card even some have not. I dont try to save money on the internet, The internet is the quickest way to talk to some of the guys at the top of the game. I understand people who grind cams for their work, not to give away their had work for free, and these are all top of the line people I have bought cams from, I dont want to drop names it tends to start trouble I dont want to deal with. They have been all over the place this was just the last. I think if you ask Joe, ED, Curtis Boggs or a few others they will tell you I am a very down to earth guy, with a well thought out car and combo, but I dont have dyno time to sort a cam out, so I have left that to Pro's. I have #s in mind of what I think it should be close to and Cam King is the first one to be there with his #s someones going to sell another 400.00 cam to me, I just want to make sure they in the ballpark.af2 wrote:I just noticed the post before mine has been altered. You had 4 cams at 114* not work? Bigjoe should have never tried to help! I always laugh at people that try to save money and time using the Internet and people you don't know?
My question is: Why call a very good engine builder(Bigjoe) and not listen? Did he try and sell you something? I have talked to him a few times and never had that ever.
The knowledge on the Internet is amazing, you still have to use common sense as with anything!
2007 HotRod Drag Week Winner SB/NA
2012 HotRod Drag Week Winner SS SB/NA
Fastest/Quickest Small Block N/A
Stock Suspension Car on Drag Week since 2007
9.67@ 139 with a 1.42 60' thru the Mufflers Dot tires
Thanks RFD Heads and Intakes
2012 HotRod Drag Week Winner SS SB/NA
Fastest/Quickest Small Block N/A
Stock Suspension Car on Drag Week since 2007
9.67@ 139 with a 1.42 60' thru the Mufflers Dot tires
Thanks RFD Heads and Intakes
So has everyone reached an agreement to the original Question?
Is there a limit to head flow??
Can a head flow too much?
Is there ever a down side to increasing the cfm per SQ in. of csa?
Is there ever a time when a gain in peak airflow, but at a lower cfm per SQ in, will result in a power gain?
Randy
Is there a limit to head flow??
Can a head flow too much?
Is there ever a down side to increasing the cfm per SQ in. of csa?
Is there ever a time when a gain in peak airflow, but at a lower cfm per SQ in, will result in a power gain?
Randy
EXACTLY!af2 wrote:I always laugh at people that try to save money and time using the Internet and people you don't know?
P.S. I've read plenty of BAD advice here and elsewhere from some of the self proclaimed pros!
P.S.S. My heads aren't done by nor do I don't get my cams from an internet guru and my stuff FLYS, making more USABLE power than similar combos resulting in running quicker ET's!!
THE PROOF IS IN THE PERFORMANCE
Bottomline...those that run quicker than most do it spending the time and $ through hard work, dedication and countless passes down the track and on the dyno discovering for themselves first hand what works and what doesn't NOT by following the advice of self proclaimed internet experts and buying what he sells seduced by the marketing, myth and hearsay!!
That said, most that ask for advice, in fact don't want advice but rather confirmation of what they have already decided is right/to do!!
There is good and bad advice here on Speedtalk.Would you post a couple of examples of the whole threads you have received bad advice here from?
For one saying 114 lobe separation will not work with 11 to 1 compression.
This has nothing to do with anything.
Valve opening and closing events are what is important.
Lobe separation is an end result.
No one who knows anything picks the lobe separation first and then designs the cam around that number?
I guess literally there is.Is there a limit to head flow??
You would not want a pro stock head a 2.0 liter engine.
Most heads on a typical engine are no where near big enough resulting in an inefficient cam design.
This I take it is a lowering of the velocity in the port yet resulting in more power?Is there ever a time when a gain in peak airflow, but at a lower cfm per SQ in, will result in a power gain
It happens often and is well documented here at Speedtalk.
Personally I think,
A known lobe separation for a specific application that has been tested and tested should hold merit. Yes the valve events will tell everything else where they fall however most people don't know squat about what their valve events should look like. They use duration numbers and known numbers within their engine family to make those decisions for them. I see very little talk about IO EO IC EC. I always see 114, 108, 280 @ .050. , 1.65 rocker, ect. ect. ect. I'd say the average Joe has to look at his cam card everytime he degrees his cam to see where the valve events should fall? If you are into engine design then perhaps we would talk more about the exact valve events. It needs to open at 24BTC and close at 54 ABDC....no maybe 56 ABDC and open at 36BTC?
There is a long long span between the items talked about in the norm and what is really needed to be talked about. If the top notch cam guys on this board would talk in valve event terms instead of cam design terms everyone would be confused. We would be talking about cams that couldn't even be produced. I always wanted to ask that question. Plus the ramp rates on the cams are going to play a major role, I think, on what type of valve event you even need. Personally, I don't think there is an abundance of BS on this site. Most of the time someone comes along and questions it and the facts get sorted out. I enjoy this board and if someone like BIGJOE1 says 114 loses power on low compression high hp drag race engines, more than likely when I have one to build I'll avoid that thought unless I totally have reason to back myself.
A known lobe separation for a specific application that has been tested and tested should hold merit. Yes the valve events will tell everything else where they fall however most people don't know squat about what their valve events should look like. They use duration numbers and known numbers within their engine family to make those decisions for them. I see very little talk about IO EO IC EC. I always see 114, 108, 280 @ .050. , 1.65 rocker, ect. ect. ect. I'd say the average Joe has to look at his cam card everytime he degrees his cam to see where the valve events should fall? If you are into engine design then perhaps we would talk more about the exact valve events. It needs to open at 24BTC and close at 54 ABDC....no maybe 56 ABDC and open at 36BTC?
There is a long long span between the items talked about in the norm and what is really needed to be talked about. If the top notch cam guys on this board would talk in valve event terms instead of cam design terms everyone would be confused. We would be talking about cams that couldn't even be produced. I always wanted to ask that question. Plus the ramp rates on the cams are going to play a major role, I think, on what type of valve event you even need. Personally, I don't think there is an abundance of BS on this site. Most of the time someone comes along and questions it and the facts get sorted out. I enjoy this board and if someone like BIGJOE1 says 114 loses power on low compression high hp drag race engines, more than likely when I have one to build I'll avoid that thought unless I totally have reason to back myself.
Joe Stalnaker
WV
WV