Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

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The Iron Icon
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Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by The Iron Icon »

Like the title says, anyone know of any good books or sources so I could learn more of chamber design and what is done for what reason.
gunt
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by gunt »

ME TOO

or a place we could be guided to for info
The Iron Icon
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by The Iron Icon »

Apparently not much enthusiasm for this kind of stuff among many. Gunt, I might have found a few things to study.once my friend is able to get me his stuff to read I'll let you know if it's worth it and I'll get the names of the books for you.
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by vannik »

I do not think the problem is a shortage of enthusiasm but a shortage of good material on the subject. There seems to be no middle ground, you either have very general recommendations or doing very advanced computational fluid dynamic simulations. Unlike in gasdynamics where you get good results from 1D versus 3D simulations there is no such a thing for combustion and combustion chambers. There are some reasonable models but they are hidden in obscure theses and often not freely available.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.” -Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by dannobee »

There are likely very good reasons why people keep these things "close to their vest."

A good starting point is to look at the chambers of modern cars. They've evolved over the years.
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by vannik »

The problem with looking at designs without knowing the compromises for fuel efficiency, emissions and drive-ability can lead you up the garden path.
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.” -Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by steve cowan »

The Iron Icon wrote: Fri Aug 21, 2020 11:33 am Like the title says, anyone know of any good books or sources so I could learn more of chamber design and what is done for what reason.
no references to speak of,doubt you will find much,the valve shape,seat and other angles and chamber probably most important area,good cfm/sq2 at the the throat area,good velocity profile in the same area around the valve head,study and understand pressure recovery,dont chase flow,have a box of test heads so you can weld,epoxy chambers,throats etc.
dont unshroud valves to much to chase flow,try different angles,widths,reverse flow test with velocity probe at different depressions.all easier said than done,life time of work and a huge rabbit hole,
good luck :D
steve c
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by BCjohnny »

IACNE, but ....... short of undergoing an intensive R&D programme on a particular head, which only a certain few can entertain, you're pretty much left with evolution of production heads designed in the fifties and sixties, and what they've become

Smaller 'softer' contoured chambers that more closely follow the individual port / valve, aiding flow and pressure recovery, usually with a repositioned plug ...... and often specific seat detail

There are few sharp nooks and crannies, no 'dead' areas where the intake charge can either become an 'end gas' or difficult to burn, mostly to the extent that the top ring crevice volume is often the single biggest issue

These are not untypical :
Screenshot_2020-09-02 Kaase P-51 Cylinder Heads.png
dartpro120170.jpeg

There are little or no specific reference sources that I know of, just tidbits, and the aftermarket heads being manufactured today that show current thinking, which on the higher performing stuff shows reasonable alignment of thought ...... short of any other credible information it seems reasonable to try to emulate, as far as you can, this as the default position, compromises permitting ...... JMO
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by jed »

If I we're to embark on such an endeavor l would start right here on Speed Talk.
To sort out the complexities of the combustion chamber you will have to understand the the entire intake tract
and how they interact with each other.
Sense your post about 10 days ago I have reread at least 25 threads on intake ports, valves, valve seats and pressure recovery.
If you do read all or most of them starting from the beginning you will have a perty good understand then you can make
your model, then a working model, then test it and write your own book.
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by jed »

Post your question on Engine Tech you'll get way more exposure to the question.
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by gunt »

jed wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:43 pm Post your question on Engine Tech you'll get way more exposure to the question.
Do most people not just watch the active topics , for daily stuff , i though it would anything would be noticed due to it

i have being reading and playing with ports , but now i am trying to decide on a combustion chamber than was designed for economy , as in what toyota call lean burn , and changing this for power , i will post pic's when i am at it . but a bit of research first would help

also to the first writer ICON ICON

if you haven't , read stuff from http://www.theoldone.com/ he has a bit in there , and Joe Mondello , that all i have found to date on chambers
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by BCjohnny »

gunt

Like probably most people I've been far too late at looking at CCs for what they are ...... you often get wrapped up in ports and seats, tending to view the CC as any old space to burn the charge that isn't too compromised

But it's not

The shape and 'softening' of chambers is the realisation of this, and at least in part a continuation of the stuff LW and others were doing 40+ years ago

JMO
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by Chris_Hamilton »

Not answer but maybe a few crumbs, Tony Knight (KnightEngines here on speedtalk) shows a bunch of pics of chamber development of a four cylinder Datsun head. From welding up the chamber to reshaping it porting etc. Really not a lot of threads with this kind of info. Lots of pics, you may have to register though.

https://performanceforums.com/forums/fo ... tsun-head=
High quality metal, body and paint work
http://www.spiuserforum.com/index.php?t ... inia.9030/
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by BCjohnny »

Ok, apologies but as no one's linked it .....

This Speed-talk discussion is one of the most complete out there

It's ten years old now, and things always change some, but I doubt by much

I can only thank all the people on here who've advanced my understanding of this, and related topics, from fresher to first day sophomore over the years =D>
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Re: Good books or sources to learn good chamber design

Post by PackardV8 »

BCjohnny wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:03 am gunt

Like probably most people I've been far too late at looking at CCs for what they are ...... you often get wrapped up in ports and seats, tending to view the CC as any old space to burn the charge that isn't too compromised But it's not . . . The shape and 'softening' of chambers is the realisation of this, and at least in part a continuation of the stuff LW and others were doing 40+ years ago . . . JMO
For true - It's all part of the whole. There are still some who will spend the hours/dollars on the intake/exhaust ports without considering the manifolds to which they're attached and the combustion chamber where the end result happens.

First time one attaches an intake manifold to that perfectly ported head and flows the unit, the world spins.

Since CAD/CAM and finite element analysis, the flow bench isn't where everything happens anymore, but long ago and far away, some of the NASCAR back rooms had flow benches where the heads and intake were flowed bolted on the block. The airflow was pulled out of the oil pan. There were 50-hp motors driving the largest GMC blower to provide air movement.

That lead to some radical chamber development on the Fords which gave them and edge for a while.
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