rpm-act

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Dave Koehler
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Re: rpm-act

Post by Dave Koehler »

hoffman900 wrote: Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:49 am This doesn’t help SEMA’s argument either:
https://sentinelcolorado.com/news/metro ... -gridlock/

Business groups are now decrying it because it’s effecting their bottom line.

Then you have shows like Street Outlaws and the myriad of Youtube channels glorifying it. Car people are their own worst enemy most of the time.
The same people that decry this and rightly so are likely the same people trying to close down Bandimere Raceway.
They should recruit a Big Willy of Colorado to get these malcontents to the track.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by Tuner »

The First Amendment assures freedom of expression in all forms, not just spoken words or printed words, but artistic expression in any form (short of kiddie pron), obscene pictures, films or sculptures, naked 'exotic dancing', etc, and the crucifix in a jar of excrement is the extreme example.

It is beyond question a settled issue that the expression of art in all forms is protected by the 1A. It is not a stretch of imagination at all to define all forms of Motorsports Activities are Performance Art, in fact no different than ballet dancing, competing in the Olympics, or riding a unicycle while juggling cups and saucers on the Ed Sullivan Show. (I offer John Force as exhibit 1)

Therefor, all activities pertaining to motorsports, whether racing, or cruising the local main drag to exhibit your art, including preparing for events, is artistic expression.

In fact, whatever you do, repair, restore or modify, simply working on a car is no different than Michael Angelo rubbing off bits of stone to reveal David, it is what you do to create a desired end result.

Art is the expression of Desire, therefor anything to do with accomplishing anything desired with cars, race or show, motors of any kind, including electric, is protected by the First Amendment.


Philosophy of art - Art as expression | Britannica
https://www.britannica.com › topic › Art-as-expression
Instead of reflecting states of the external world, art is held to reflect the inner state of the artist. This, at least, seems to be implicit in the core meaning of expression ...
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Re: rpm-act

Post by j-c-c »

Not sure were you are going with this, but the grey area in your argument is when freedom of expression transcends into freedom of action. I can own a gun, and maybe display it many circumstances, but I think most will agree, my rights to shoot it are limited, and that is widely accepted.
Same kinda with art, obscene acts can be depicted, but not always acted out in public.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by Tuner »

j-c-c wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:53 pm Not sure were you are going with this, but the grey area in your argument is when freedom of expression transcends into freedom of action. I can own a gun, and maybe display it many circumstances, but I think most will agree, my rights to shoot it are limited, and that is widely accepted.
Same kinda with art, obscene acts can be depicted, but not always acted out in public.
I thought it was reasonably clear. Motorsports is Performance Art. How is a person who chooses some form of motorsport to express inner desire any different than a poet or painter expressing inner desire.

If we keep letting the overzealous wackjobs have the stage they will convince themselves Michelangelo committed a crime against nature because he destroyed a block of Carrara marble to make the Pietà.

How can motorsports be considered obscene? What kind of obscene motorsport are you involved in that might fit your prohibited criteria?
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Re: rpm-act

Post by Dennis »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsX5c1A9_ls

There is also a follow-up video, the first and most responded comment is really interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXMfqU3V5vQ

This is the actual comment if you can't find it:

"After Cobb Tuning (and other ecu/flash tool makers) were raided, Evans Tuning received a demand letter from the EPA giving him one month to submit all his sales and customer data from the proceeding 3 years. It had to be submitted in an EPA mandated format and it was not optional. After Jeff met the EPA demands he did not hear from them again, until just a couple weeks ago. They asked for a conference call with Jeff and his attorney. The conference call took place today.

In it, Evans was told that the EPA had identified no less than 298 violations of the clean air act, and each violation was subject to a fine of several thousand dollars. The net penalty is somewhere in excess of US$1 million. The vast majority of these penalties were not related to Evans' tuning of various vehicles, but rather because Evans sold products to end customers that could be used to bypass emissions rules. Let me repeat that. Evans sold products, available on the market today, that could be used to bypass emissions controls on vehicles. And furthermore, while Evans Tuning is a corporation, they have personally attached Jeff Evans to the fines, meaning even if Evans Tuning goes bankrupt, he is still liable for them personally.

Hopefully you begin to see both the ridiculousness of such an attack, as well as the danger it represents to any enthusiast. The EPA has now resumed its assertion (belayed last year when the US Congress entertained amending the clean air act to fix this) that the Clean Air Act does not exclude production based race cars from the rules forbidding any alteration of any emissions equipment on the car. Historically the EPA had said that race cars didn't fall under the purview of the law, but changed their interpretation last year.

If the EPA's action against Evans succeeds, they will have, in one fell swoop, made illegal over 90% of the products and services provided by the aftermarket in the United States. Any modification that does not undergo California CARB certification or a US FTP emissions cert, would be de facto illegal for use on any vehicle made after 1971, regardless of the usage or venue of usage for that vehicle. No longer will you be able to custom tune a race car, unless you are willing to spend $10k to custom certify the emissions of that vehicle. And all production based racing series (see World Challenge, for example) would be required to use factory catalysts (which will not last in a race environment of course).

The action against Evans is also capricious in that it singles out someone who simply performed a select set of services on the vehicle. A customer who brings in a race car (converted from a street car) that has removed all emissions equipment, added a turbocharger and a stand alone aftermarket ECU is not prosecuted, but the man who tuned the ECU (and indeed made the vehicle run better) is facing bankruptcy and the ruin of his life and career. Of course, after the EPA is done with tuners, the end users may be next. Look for EPA thugs at your local race track soon."
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Re: rpm-act

Post by lefty o »

i did not know cobb was raided by the communist.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by j-c-c »

Tuner wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:34 pm
j-c-c wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:53 pm Not sure were you are going with this, but the grey area in your argument is when freedom of expression transcends into freedom of action. I can own a gun, and maybe display it many circumstances, but I think most will agree, my rights to shoot it are limited, and that is widely accepted.
Same kinda with art, obscene acts can be depicted, but not always acted out in public.
I thought it was reasonably clear. Motorsports is Performance Art. How is a person who chooses some form of motorsport to express inner desire any different than a poet or painter expressing inner desire.

If we keep letting the overzealous wackjobs have the stage they will convince themselves Michelangelo committed a crime against nature because he destroyed a block of Carrara marble to make the Pietà.

How can motorsports be considered obscene? What kind of obscene motorsport are you involved in that might fit your prohibited criteria?
"when freedom of expression transcends into freedom of action"

I thought I was reasonably clear.

Your opinion was reasonably clear, into a grey area, and I disagreed.

I tried to use an analogy to support my position, obviously in vain.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by Tom Walker »

I think the main point is, without some unity and pushback, there is a possibility the E.P.A. will continue to try and curtail our ability to modify our vehicles for any reason.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by j-c-c »

Unity is great and useful, no argument.

However whatever case is to be made to support the RPM act, which I strongly do, and have since the first it was proposed, it is always best if the argument is based on sound logical argument.

Trying to ride in on the coattails of "art" as a justification, is as I have already addressed, a weak and likely an easily defeated position in the public forum, and best not supply your adversary possibly weak positions in which they can gain points.

Best to argue and present the strong points IMO.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by lefty o »

j-c-c wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:37 am Unity is great and useful, no argument.

However whatever case is to be made to support the RPM act, which I strongly do, and have since the first it was proposed, it is always best if the argument is based on sound logical argument.

Trying to ride in on the coattails of "art" as a justification, is as I have already addressed, a weak and likely an easily defeated position in the public forum, and best not supply your adversary possibly weak positions in which they can gain points.

Best to argue and present the strong points IMO.
i know better than to discuss anything with you, but if you can legally burn the American flag as a type of freedom of speech, you can sure as hell express yourself by modifying a car/truck.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by j-c-c »

lefty o wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:36 pm
j-c-c wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:37 am Unity is great and useful, no argument.

However whatever case is to be made to support the RPM act, which I strongly do, and have since the first it was proposed, it is always best if the argument is based on sound logical argument.

Trying to ride in on the coattails of "art" as a justification, is as I have already addressed, a weak and likely an easily defeated position in the public forum, and best not supply your adversary possibly weak positions in which they can gain points.

Best to argue and present the strong points IMO.
i know better than to discuss anything with you, but if you can legally burn the American flag as a type of freedom of speech, you can sure as hell express yourself by modifying a car/truck.
So much for unity.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by Datsunworks »

[/quote]

i know better than to discuss anything with you, but if you can legally burn the American flag as a type of freedom of speech, you can sure as hell express yourself by modifying a car/truck.
[/quote]

You can burn a flag and call it art but you are still subject to local burn ordinances. You can take a flag, dump 55 gallons of diesel fuel on it and burn it and you will be hearing from local authorities as well as the EPA and you can call it art or freedom or any other thing but you are breaking the law.

Just calling something "art" does not mean you get a free pass.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by Jim2527 »

Someone sold the device bubba used to diesel fog the lady riding her bike. Saw this first hand....
the grey area in your argument is when freedom of expression transcends into freedom of action.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by lefty o »

Datsunworks wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:00 pm
i know better than to discuss anything with you, but if you can legally burn the American flag as a type of freedom of speech, you can sure as hell express yourself by modifying a car/truck.
[/quote]

You can burn a flag and call it art but you are still subject to local burn ordinances. You can take a flag, dump 55 gallons of diesel fuel on it and burn it and you will be hearing from local authorities as well as the EPA and you can call it art or freedom or any other thing but you are breaking the law.

Just calling something "art" does not mean you get a free pass.
[/quote]

no you wont, has never happened, and you know it hasnt. should that happen, probably, but hasnt, so the analogy fits.
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Re: rpm-act

Post by Tuner »

j-c-c wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:58 am
Tuner wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:34 pm
j-c-c wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:53 pm Not sure were you are going with this, but the grey area in your argument is when freedom of expression transcends into freedom of action. I can own a gun, and maybe display it many circumstances, but I think most will agree, my rights to shoot it are limited, and that is widely accepted.
Same kinda with art, obscene acts can be depicted, but not always acted out in public.
I thought it was reasonably clear. Motorsports is Performance Art. How is a person who chooses some form of motorsport to express inner desire any different than a poet or painter expressing inner desire.

If we keep letting the overzealous wackjobs have the stage they will convince themselves Michelangelo committed a crime against nature because he destroyed a block of Carrara marble to make the Pietà.

How can motorsports be considered obscene? What kind of obscene motorsport are you involved in that might fit your prohibited criteria?
"when freedom of expression transcends into freedom of action"

I thought I was reasonably clear.

Your opinion was reasonably clear, into a grey area, and I disagreed.

I tried to use an analogy to support my position, obviously in vain.
In your vanity creating a race car is not art and you agree with the Supreme Court that Jesus on the Cross in a jar of piss is art.
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