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Self Driving Car Service

Anything to do with the electric or hybrid world

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SchmidtMotorWorks
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:43 am

One of the driving forces of self driving cars is that OEMs are expecting that people will generally not own cars. When they need to go somewhere they call a car to come and get them. This make sit possible for a regular person to afford to ride in a car that cost multiples of the car they could afford to buy. No more maintenance, no more car dealers.

With regards to defensive driving, some aspects of the cars I saw at Mercedes were way ahead of anything any human could do.
Even estimating the optimum trajectory to save the most life in an accident considering the likely age and number of occupants in the cars. Experts on ethics involved.
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by exhaustgases » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:18 am

And then there are computer glitches, and unintended acceleration, hackers taking control. Being a person that has worked around computerized robots since the mid 70's in the form of machine tools, I can tell you from experience that they are not perfect and it doesn't take much to make them go crazy. How can anyone trust electronics that has spacing of the discrete elements with in the chip measured in atom distances. I guess not many people know how little current it takes to punch through and self reprogram the memory or the micro processor. Since god isn't the qc person, I highly distrust micro electronics to drive for me of fly the plane I'd be in.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by PackardV8 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:42 am

exhaustgases wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:18 am
Being a person that has worked around computerized robots since the mid 70's in the form of machine tools, I can tell you from experience that they are not perfect and it doesn't take much to make them go crazy.
Being a person who has worked around humans for the past fifty years, bet on the robots every times. Robot failures cause an occasional line shutdown, but when they learn they're being fired, they're unlikely to bring in a gun and shoot everyone. The reason robots exist is there's the likelihood they'll be on time and do the work correctly all day, every day; humans not gonna happen.
And then there are computer glitches, and unintended acceleration, hackers taking control.
1. There's never been a proven case of "unintended acceleration" being caused by other than human physical error. Even if the go-pedal were to go full open, the whoa-pedal foot brakes on every vehicle sold today are powerful enough to quickly and safely stop the car. I was part of a test/demonstration and did it myself on an entire product line. And yes, braking systems have a backup if the electronics fail.

2. Micro electronics have long been flying and navigating the planes we're in and there's a redundant system for each of those; my pilot friends tell me the most difficult/dangerous part of their job today is surviving the drive to the airport. Once in the air, then staying awake. They do regularly go through extensive training simulations on how to handle any emergency which has ever happened in the air and many which have never happened but theoretically could. Most of the scenarios which actually have occurred involve birds, human failures, mechanicals and weather.

Yes, there are always more movies about hackers than actual hackers. We've seen the youtubes, but my mother was always terrified by urban legend reports of children being snatched in shopping malls. Turns out not to be very likely.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by Newold1 » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:26 pm

Well I am still not convinced it's time to go there in any kind of big way!

Just this last week or so two Tesla drivers were killed relying on the so called auto pilot in their Tesla. I think we will have to wait for the NTSB to rule on the incidents but something is still wrong with totally accepting autonomous driving as "ready for the general public and times"! Try to put me in one now and I'll resort to walking thank you!
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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by gruntguru » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:27 pm

FC-Pilot wrote:
Mon Mar 04, 2019 4:30 am
I can't imagine how the programming engineers are going to deal with the bike traffic that holds onto your mirror as you are heading down the road. LOL I look forward to seeing how that one plays out.
There are several programming options:
1. Full power acceleration for 1 second then slam on the brakes.
2. Swerve into the cyclist they back to throw him off.
3. Ignore him and continue. To hell with the tiny additional fuel cost.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by gruntguru » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:28 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:26 pm
Well I am still not convinced it's time to go there in any kind of big way!

Just this last week or so two Tesla drivers were killed relying on the so called auto pilot in their Tesla. I think we will have to wait for the NTSB to rule on the incidents but something is still wrong with totally accepting autonomous driving as "ready for the general public and times"! Try to put me in one now and I'll resort to walking thank you!
I believe Tesla drivers must commit to not rely on the so called auto pilot feature. The Tesla is not a level 5 (or even level 4) AV.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by Roundybout » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:49 pm

I’ve been interested in the moral and ethical portion of self driving cars for a while and have been active in the field (I’m a computer software engineer). Personally I’m not purchasing a vehicle that would possibly cause myself or anyone in my vehicle injury to avoid a pedestrian or a crash. Another big problem is no matter how well programmed it’s impossible for a computer to anticipate each and every circumstance it will encounter. A human is light years ahead of computers because of past experience and the ability to anticipate situations due to that experience. Computers are light years ahead of humans in the ability to analyze a situation, process it and make a decision in milliseconds. Then the liability issue is a can of worms. Programmers fault? Manufacture? Person relying on the automation to do the right thing? Personally I’d go with the operator of the car is responsible for it, either driven by a human or by a computer.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by gruntguru » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:47 pm

Roundybout wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:49 pm
Personally I’m not purchasing a vehicle that would possibly cause myself or anyone in my vehicle injury to avoid a pedestrian or a crash.
Not sure why people put so much weight on these fanciful situations. For every occasion an AV might need to make such a decision, there will be 100 situations where an AV has saved a life.
Another big problem is no matter how well programmed it’s impossible for a computer to anticipate each and every circumstance it will encounter.
Same for human drivers.
Then the liability issue is a can of worms. Programmers fault? Manufacture? Person relying on the automation to do the right thing? Personally I’d go with the operator of the car is responsible for it, either driven by a human or by a computer.
Who is the operator of an unoccupied AV?

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by PackardV8 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 10:27 am

Roundybout wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:49 pm
Another big problem is no matter how well programmed it’s impossible for a computer to anticipate each and every circumstance it will encounter. A human is light years ahead of computers because of past experience and the ability to anticipate situations due to that experience.
Here's where we'll agree to disagree. Yes, a fully-aware and experienced human driver is still better in the unpredictable situations. However, the reality is humans are seldom fully engaged in motor vehicle operation. Each year, human error causes 5,400,000 crashes, killing 33,000 and injuring 2,250,000 of us. At their worst, AI controlled vehicles would be less dangerous.

Humans just aren't going to do it right consistently. Back when anti-lock brakes were first introduced, the safety organizations hailed the advance and insurance companies gave discounts to the new vehicles so equipped. Guess what? Even with this wonderful new device installed, rear end collisions did not decrease. The majority of drivers had no idea how to use the feature and didn't bother to learn; those few who did used it to follow more closely. In the aggregate, the statistics prove humans are not competent to operate such a deadly device as a motor vehicle.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by exhaustgases » Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:26 pm

PackardV8 wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:42 am
exhaustgases wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:18 am
Being a person that has worked around computerized robots since the mid 70's in the form of machine tools, I can tell you from experience that they are not perfect and it doesn't take much to make them go crazy.
Being a person who has worked around humans for the past fifty years, bet on the robots every times. Robot failures cause an occasional line shutdown, but when they learn they're being fired, they're unlikely to bring in a gun and shoot everyone. The reason robots exist is there's the likelihood they'll be on time and do the work correctly all day, every day; humans not gonna happen.
And then there are computer glitches, and unintended acceleration, hackers taking control.
1. There's never been a proven case of "unintended acceleration" being caused by other than human physical error. Even if the go-pedal were to go full open, the whoa-pedal foot brakes on every vehicle sold today are powerful enough to quickly and safely stop the car. I was part of a test/demonstration and did it myself on an entire product line. And yes, braking systems have a backup if the electronics fail.

2. Micro electronics have long been flying and navigating the planes we're in and there's a redundant system for each of those; my pilot friends tell me the most difficult/dangerous part of their job today is surviving the drive to the airport. Once in the air, then staying awake. They do regularly go through extensive training simulations on how to handle any emergency which has ever happened in the air and many which have never happened but theoretically could. Most of the scenarios which actually have occurred involve birds, human failures, mechanicals and weather.

Yes, there are always more movies about hackers than actual hackers. We've seen the youtubes, but my mother was always terrified by urban legend reports of children being snatched in shopping malls. Turns out not to be very likely.

jack vines
How can the acceleration deal be proven? Commandeered computers or computer glitches can not be proven, that falls into the well known "can't trouble shoot an intermittent electrical problem" especially when no test equipment was connected at the time. But when one of those cars and I'm sure others as well had people that can think on their feet so to say, one was a police person. Many times in the past I have had the throttle stick open on a particular car that I installed a cruise control in, if a quick few taps on the loud pedal didn't fix it. I'd pop in neutral and turn it off. It really is a different show on cars now where everything that the driver uses to control the car is owned by a computer. Oh and airplanes? Now there are 2 newer 737's that dove to the ground because the pilots where not allowed to fly the planes, since there are no more control cables in them like the old DC7's or DC3's.
PS. Brakes are powerful enough you say, now think real hard, aren't they all computerized ABS systems? I guess you missed the news report back when all that was going on and how the hacker they hired disabled the brakes on the car they were riding in. The computer controls the start stop as well.
Transmissions have been computer controlled for decades now, so?
So yeah even the professional think on their feet person is screwed if it goes out of control, or is taken over. Unless that person has installed a big red button like all Numerical control machine tools have that is called an E stop button, that will disable all commands to any servo on the machine, and isolate the computer from the machine. Now why would they install all those E stop buttons all around a CNC milling machine if it is so trust worthy?
Any self driving car that does not have back up controls should never be allowed on the streets.

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Re: Self Driving Car Service

Post by Newold1 » Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Hey, we have Boeing today announcing that they will do and need reprogramming of the auto take off flight controls of their 737 Max 8 jets after the second one crashed in Ethiopia yesterday. It seems they are admitting that their programming is not quite correct or safe and in emergency situations like these crashes .Apparently the pilots could not take control of the manual controls to abort the automated flight controls which were putting the jets into to diving down of the plane after the auto systems programming was saying the jet was climbing at to steep an angle.

Point is auto systems and the associated programming like people are not perfect nor in many cases ready to switch our driving over to automatic control.

Until these industries and systems like these have less disconcerting situations and prove better operation you won't get me into any autonomous vehicle or a 737 MAX 8 jet!

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