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Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

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Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:44 pm

In the past 2 years I have been employed working on some projects developing new parts and systems for new model American V8 performance cars

The best performing configurations were supercharged and could get in the range of 800 RWHP on a chassis dyno and still pass smog.
The effort to accomplish that was extraordinary, several highly motivated, OEM experienced, calibrators spent months to make it run well.
Not "hotrod well", "OEM well".

All the time on the dyno, everyone was pushing to get more power, it just seemed like the obvious thing to do.

Finally it was drivable enough to test on the road.

1. Way too much power, even with as good of tires as could be fit in the body, they were useless past 1/2 throttle at any speed. Put a teenager in that car and it would be crashed in a week. Eben an experienced driver could only keep it together I he had the restraint to keep it below about 0.6 throttle. I was told by those that had tried; better tires will just break the drive-train with this power level.
2. The tone of the exhaust sound was not pleasant, at an idle and low speeds it was fine, maybe even a little racy for a street driven car.
But under power, that much power going through a full CA legal exhaust system sounds choked like a pulsing air hose.
3. Frankly, all things considered, I think the car was made worse than it was stock. Once the novelty wore off and you want to get from point A to B in LA traffic, I would rather drive just about anything else.

Then it occurred to me, a Tesla (that a grandmother could pleasantly drive to play bingo) would beat it in a drag race.

I changed jobs, I don't see any point to the work I was doing anymore.
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by PackardV8 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:33 pm

For true, and I'm there with you. We've raised the internal combustion engine to previously unimagined levels, but there's a point of diminishing returns. I've driven a few of those uber-powered muscle/super cars and there's always the awareness of all those pistons, valves, springs, cams, cranks, super/turbos and nine-speed automatics spinning to make that power. The Tesla is just silently gone, like the Millennium Falcon making the jump to hyperspace.

Mostly because I've done stuff which was already obsolete, I'm like the blacksmith standing over his hot forge hammering a red hot horseshoe and he sees his first car drive by. "Well, this changes everything, don't it?

And yes, my wife is driving a Chevrolet Bolt electric for her daily errands. She loves it and I find it a hoot to drive when she will let me in it occasionally.

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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by In-Tech » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:30 pm

Jon, I thought I posted a 6 spd manual CTSV build I did years ago with a whipplecharged 430 cu in engine that idled and drove smoothly like a CADILLAC, would have no problems passing a bag test at CARB, and made ~875 rwhp, and as you said, completely undriveable without massive detail to torque management via spark and ETC. Even then it could have used a servo on the bypass valve like mercury marine uses to add life to their drives. I also whipplecharged a LS9 vette for the same customer previous to the ctsv and that car lasted 3 days till he totalled it. #-o
You are correct, when you are moving that much air, it is hard to have a quiet exhaust. From memory I want to say we were flowing ~880 grams per sec through the MAF.

I'm not sure where this conversation is going but it's nice to ramble on occasion. :mrgreen:
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by thedynoguy » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:07 am

I'm on my 2nd Hellcat Challenger, both with OEM stock power. They have plenty of power for me, but make no mistake you need to be paying attention when you plant your right foot to the floor. Anyhow, there are a bunch of Teslas in my area, and from my experience nobody gives a crap about them. They slink down the expressways, in and out of the strip malls and I've never seen anyone take a second glance at one. The Hellcat on the other hand, tends to get quite a few looks, thumbs up, pictures taken, etc. We all can appreciate the technology that makes both of these cars great, but I'll take the whine of the supercharger and the bark of the exhaust any day...

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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by Newold1 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:11 am

This is the conundrum for the performance car and parts industry period!

In the earlier years of street driving performance or performance enhanced cars on the street there were a lot less cars on the roads, much more open asphalt where a car could be kicked to experience it's power and acceleration without wrapping it around a pole or other car on the road. Today those open road locations are hugely disappearing and with Smokey radar and such the tickets and violations are getting more punitive and expensive. The real wheel horsepower available on average in those days was low enough that a stab at the throttle might smoke the old tires a little and some shifted chirps but it was nowhere near todays factory offerings that some without traction control and great driving skills will cross you up so fast and launch you into some near earth orbits so quickly you will wonder what happened!

The same for the aftermarket parts and engines for the dailey driver enthusiasts who with some bolt on parts like supercharging, etc. can again make this large jump in wheel horsepower so quickly and easily that having the controlled driving a quickly lacking expertise!

The need for speed is still very alive and the bad boy -no fear mentality is there in big quantities to feed the need! The manufacturers are playing this part of the auto manufacturing sector very well, just price some of these street eating monsters! But as hard as it seems to accept, this is a shrinking market today!

But as more adolescents take the time and look up from their cellphones and screens to start driving their overall enjoyment of sounds and power from an automobile have waned! They have been there done that on their computers and movie screens. Hard to get enough of thee new generations to get jazzed by cars is shrinking and the market shrinks similarly.

So how does this sport, hobby and market keep itself sustainable and in place. IT'S CALLED RACING! and not on the street. The racing industry faces the biggest challenges in how does it maintain locations to race in this environmental control freakout that exists today and how does it make racing more affordable to many and viable enough that young enthusiasts can get excited, involved and participating to keep more aspects of racing from career, innovation, development, participation, advertising income and coverage of racing comes back into the mainstream.

Watch the Daytona 500 Race today and note how many of the 500,000 seats are empty compared to the crowds of 10-20 years ago!

My take is that somethings like this don't happen in the next 10 years, the entire automobile performance industry and aftermarket will be in it's death throws. The advent and quick acceptance of the EV industry, autonomous vehicles and AI will continue to put such pressure on the whole auto performance industry and hobby that is future will be teetering on the cliff of oblivion!

Sorry for the rant but I've started reading the tea leaves instead of drinking them. :(
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by PackardV8 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:55 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:11 am
But as hard as it seems to accept, this is a shrinking market today! . . . Sorry for the rant but I've started reading the tea leaves instead of drinking them.
Yep, it's a rant and if one is old enough to remember the same rant factors were at work in the early 1970s when we lost the street hemi, the Boss 429" and the L-88. "The youth/performance market is dead; killed by emissions and the insurance industry." No one alive then would believe the performance/economy/handling/braking/emissions of today's rides. We thought we'd lost it forever, but a 1970 street hemi is an oxcart by today's Hellcat standard; it's the new golden age of performance.
Newold1 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:11 am
Watch the Daytona 500 Race today and note how many of the 500,000 seats are empty compared to the crowds of 10-20 years ago!
Long on rant, wrong on facts. Daytona never had more than 146,000 seats. As the interest waned, they remodeled the track and removed 44,500 seats. Today, they are advertising yet another sold-out race with 101,500 seats, plus uncounted proles in the infield.

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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by Newold1 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:14 pm

You are right about rants coming without all the fact checks so my seat count of Daytona is way off but the effect is still the same the crowds at most of the biggest racing events are down and participation is shrinking also. Just look at teams numbers in prostock and top fuel racing counts versus 15 years ago. Look at the team shrinking in all levels of Nascar and in many racing programs. There is no denying these shrinkages and they point to a sketchy future for the Racing industry. Not saying or hoping it will ever end, but I think the performance market and a lot of racing is almost on life support!

MY rant is not meant to bash or criticise as I derive my living in the aftermarket, but I also it's good for people on Speedtalk and other performance forums to discuss these issues and not hide our heads in the sand like it's not happening around us. I am an eternal optimist to a fault sometimes, but this trend is bothering me and lot of other more knowledgeable and invested people than me! What's that old saying "Rome burned while Nero Fiddled"!
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by SchmidtMotorWorks » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:50 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 11:11 am
This is the conundrum for the performance car and parts industry period!
As someone that designs and develops parts for the performance aftermarket the problem is in finding opportunity for new products.

For the 1960's engines, there are multiple versions of every class of part out there and sales are a small fraction of what they were 15 years ago. Return on investment on these projects is in years, not months.

For late model cars, the problem is opportunity to improve. The OEM designs are much better optimized than they were in the 1960's.
There just isn't much room for improvement unless you change the requirements, such a higher RPM range.
The performance aftermarket does not have the equipment, personnel, software or budget to continue where the OEMs stop.
Just look at the manifold shootouts for LS and Coyote engines, most of the aftermarket offerings were worse than the OEM parts.

The days when you could just make a nicer casting than the OEMs did and have a good product are gone.

If you don't have high-end CFD with transient simulation with moving boundaries (and the skills to use it), you are going to need a lot of luck to improve on an OEM design. I don't think anyone in the performance after market have that, the only option they have is to use consultant that do have those tools.
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by BILL-C » Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:52 pm

Sitting here thinking about what i am going to do when the first visitor or customer asks to plug in to my outlet for a quick charge because they don't have enough juice to get home. Electricity isn't free! Here in Ct, the power company is giving big rebates and no intrest loans to businesses on LED lighting to reduce demand on grid, which is aparently almost maxed out. How does the cost of a "fill up" compare to a gas car? How long does it take?
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by PackardV8 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:35 pm

BILL-C wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:52 pm
Sitting here thinking about what i am going to do when the first visitor or customer asks to plug in to my outlet for a quick charge because they don't have enough juice to get home. Electricity isn't free! Here in Ct, the power company is giving big rebates and no intrest loans to businesses on LED lighting to reduce demand on grid, which is aparently almost maxed out. How does the cost of a "fill up" compare to a gas car? How long does it take?
It depends. If your customer wanted to plug in to your 115-volt outlet, you'd be giving him dinner and a bed and breakfast. If you happened to have a 220-volt outlet for which he had a compatable plug and wiring, he'd be there 3-6 hours, depending on how flat his battery.

As far as cost goes, it depends. In CT, you pay high kwh charges. Up here in the frozen northwest, it costs more to run our hot tub than it does to juice our electric car for our daily driving. Electricity is so cheap, we don't have time-of-use metering.

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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by Newold1 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:41 pm

Bill
Probably won't ever happen as the EV industry is busy already putting charging units all over. Visit your local mall, some roadside rest areas, even roadside restaurants are putting them in.
As for the grids ability to provide the added power for this new EV demand, I don't know for sure but I suspect the majors would not be investing hundreds of billions in all this new EV market if they thought the charging of these vehicles would grind the power supply industry to a massive shortage or stop. Just another issue to work out. When large numbers of cars first hit the roads back in the twenties there were not many gas stations to fuel those cars but somehow numbers grew without much to worry about.
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by BILL-C » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:48 am

WOW ! 3-6 hr recharge time? How is that going to work in this instant gratification age where you get beeped at if you take longer than 3 minutes to fill up at the gas pump.I hate to say it, but I’m expecting to see a bunch of dead ev’ s on the side of the road because of driver incompetence.
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by PackardV8 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:47 am

BILL-C wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:48 am
WOW ! 3-6 hr recharge time? How is that going to work in this instant gratification age where you get beeped at if you take longer than 3 minutes to fill up at the gas pump.I hate to say it, but I’m expecting to see a bunch of dead ev’ s on the side of the road because of driver incompetence.
How would that be different than seeing a bunch of dead ICEs on the side of the road because of driver incompetence?

FWIW, CalTrans has a full-time service truck kept busy delivering a complementary gallon of gasoline to drivers who run out on the SF/Oakland Bay Bridge; most of whom drive the bridge twice daily. As Ron White makes a lot of money saying at every performance, "You can't fix stupid."

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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by BILL-C » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:19 pm

In the hands of the right people I can see where the ev s would be fantastic. I can also think of quite a few people who are too incompetent and irresponsible to keep properly charged up and would need to be towed out of everyone’s way on a regular basis. I think that the idiots of the world will be coming up with new ways to “ F” these ev s up and it will take a while to bullet proof them. When that happens they will be big players in the auto market. More for my children than me though.
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Re: Supercharged V8 vs Tesla

Post by Newold1 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:08 pm

Heck Bill there are a ton of incompetent ICE drivers being towed of the roads and being filled with a little gas by AAA , DOT, ETC. everyday and it's not because they have an easier job to buy gas versus charge with electricity. It's because they are so damn stupid and negligent in looking at the gauge or flashing idiot light that they are running out of fuel and it won't matter to these dummies if it's electricity or fuel!

Also quick charge technology is coming on line faster and stronger almost by the month. Also a current quick charge on most EV's even today can give them 50 or so mile in just 15-20 minutes on the charger not a full 2-3 hour charge.
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