We are currently running on the new domain and server: www.Speed-Talk.com

IMPORTANT: Update your bookmarks to https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/
(Right-click the URL and select "Bookmark this link")

So electric may just be a passing fad again

Anything to do with the electric or hybrid world

Moderator: Team

gruntguru
Pro
Pro
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 pm
Location:

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gruntguru » Thu May 02, 2019 7:13 pm

lefty o wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:27 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 1:37 am
There is a claim that the SULFUR DIOXIDE emissions of the 15 largest ships exceeds that of all cars in the world. Even if that claim is true, it is only because ships run on rubbish fuel that contains LOTS OF SULFUR.

In terms of total NOXIOUS emissions (as implied) the claim is total bollocks.

In terms of CO2 emissions, the claim is even bigger bollocks! Marine energy consumption is about 2% of all fossil fuel energy and about 10% of transportation energy (45% for passenger cars). (CO2 emissions reasonable approximate energy consumption for hydrocarbon fuels) So every ship on earth combined totals less than 1/4 of the emissions of all passenger cars.

The claims about EVs and Tesla are also bollocks. Where is the link to this TV program?
not really so far off, but what needs to be considered is those ships run those engines 24/7 for probably 300+ days a year. compare that to how little each actual car runs. now if each car ran the same amount of hours each year, yeah the figures would be pure trash, but they dont, so.....
The numbers I posted are based on "fuel used" in each category so the duty cycle of ships vs cars has been accounted for.

exhaustgases
Guru
Guru
Posts: 6540
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:03 pm
Location:

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by exhaustgases » Sat May 04, 2019 10:30 pm

Mummert wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:23 pm
gunt wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:58 pm
if every car van truck that remains on earth was started the emissions would only equal the largest 15 ships in the world ! ,
Whom, never heard this before but sounds interesting.
And one 747 will out do one of those ships during take off. All of the jet aircraft and ships and generating plants pollute way more than the more than 50% efficient large 2 stroke marine engines do.

And many studies prove electric cars pollute more than mineral fuel burning cars do.


https://notrickszone.com/2019/04/19/new ... -more-co2/

exhaustgases
Guru
Guru
Posts: 6540
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:03 pm
Location:

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by exhaustgases » Sun May 05, 2019 8:03 pm

exhaustgases wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:30 pm
Mummert wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:23 pm
gunt wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:58 pm
if every car van truck that remains on earth was started the emissions would only equal the largest 15 ships in the world ! ,
Whom, never heard this before but sounds interesting.
And one 747 will out do one of those ships during take off. All of the jet aircraft and ships and generating plants pollute way more than the more than 50% efficient large 2 stroke marine engines do.

And many studies prove electric cars pollute more than mineral fuel burning cars do.


https://notrickszone.com/2019/04/19/new ... -more-co2/
I meant to say "All of the jet aircraft and ships and generating plants THAT ARE TURBINE POWERED pollute way more"

Newold1
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1963
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:50 am
Location:

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by Newold1 » Sun May 05, 2019 9:11 pm

Please post some links to these studies that show EV's pollute more than fuel burning IVC's. I have not seen or read any but I don't red everything that is written.
The Older I Get, The Dumber I Get :wink:

gunt
Pro
Pro
Posts: 240
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:52 pm
Location:

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gunt » Mon May 06, 2019 6:04 pm

i'd have to dig out the program, but its mainly about the production and end of life , also depending on the country how its powering the electricity , coal nuclear , wind what ever . but we all know lithium ion batteries cannot be recycled , then combine this with the 150000mile life , dosent add up

Brian P
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:35 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by Brian P » Mon May 06, 2019 9:54 pm

Recycling of lithium batteries is a well-known issue. It is being worked on, and it will come. Right now it's not economically viable, but once these vehicles are out there in large numbers, that will change the economics.

Just because it isn't done today, doesn't mean it can't be done or won't ever happen.

Brian P
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:35 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by Brian P » Mon May 06, 2019 10:24 pm

Let''s touch on some ROUGH efficiency numbers to give this a "smell test".

Suppose you start with a fossil fuel that in either case has been taken out of the ground and had whatever processing and transporting done assuming that's the same in both cases. Now let's put together some rough efficiencies.

Combustion engine: At best this is 40% efficient. In real world driving it's closer to 15% - 20%, and it's 0% when idling. Something with a hybrid powertrain and which stops its engine when it isn't needed might do a little better, something "traditional" with an oversized engine might be worse. Then there's a transmission that is perhaps 90% efficient. (It's 0% efficient when sitting stopped in traffic.) Tank to wheels? 15% - 20% efficient.

EV: A state of the art natural gas fired combined-cycle plant is around 60% efficient fuel-to-electricity. A coal-fired plant is around 40%. Let's use that number for the heck of it. Let's assume NO modern natural-gas combined-cycle plants. Let's assume NO nuclear and NO hydroelectric. Just coal, at 40% efficient from fuel to electricity. Distribution network 90%, now we are at 36%. Charge-discharge of the battery, let's take that at 90%, it's in that ballpark, now we are at around 32%. Inverter and motor, around 85%, now we are at 27.5% efficient from the fuel to the wheels of the vehicle. There is no transmission - there will be a simple gear reducer whose internal losses can be neglected for what we are talking about here.

The EV will be heavier than a comparable combustion-engine vehicle. But on the other hand ... the EV will have regenerative braking which is only available with a full-hybrid combustion-engine vehicle (Prius, etc). Let's say those wipe each other out.

So the EV has quite a bit higher thermal efficiency than the combustion-engine vehicle taking into account the efficiency of the central power station.

Coal emits more CO2 per useful energy content than hydrocarbon fuels. https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=73&t=11 It's around 30% higher, which offsets part of that efficiency gain. Roughly speaking, if the grid is supplied by 100% coal, the EV described above will have CO2 emissions during operation about 20%-30% below what a comparable combustion-engine vehicle would have. (That's not far from what other sources have stated.) The CO2 emissions during the vehicle's life dominate over those associated with its manufacturing.

If the grid supply is not 100% coal (which is the worst-case condition) and is instead a more realistic blend of natural gas, hydroelectric, and nuclear then the EV gets a CO2 emissions advantage that no combustion-engine vehicle could ever overcome.

The province where I live (Ontario) as of a couple years ago gets about 58% of its electricity from nuclear, about 23% from hydroelectric, about 10% from natural gas, and about 9% from a mixture of renewable sources, and none from coal. An EV fed from the Ontario grid - or the Quebec grid, which is mostly fed from hydroelectric - has very low indirect CO2 emissions during operation.

GRTfast
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 3155
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:26 am
Location:

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by GRTfast » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:02 pm

Kevin Johnson wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:11 pm
gunt wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:05 pm
... so if one plane crash ended it all , lots could end this
Unfortunately, objective discourse is being abandoned for ideologically based narratives.
^^*humanity’s epitaph.

exhaustgases
Guru
Guru
Posts: 6540
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:03 pm
Location:

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by exhaustgases » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:34 pm

And don't forget in your example above that nuclear does emit green house gases and should be factored in.
https://www.agreenroadjournal.com/2013/ ... n-air.html

gmrocket
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 5165
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:40 pm
Location: Grimsby Ontario

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Wed Jul 03, 2019 8:10 pm

Newold1 wrote:
Mon Apr 29, 2019 8:28 pm
As I said I believe as many others that EV's will outnumber IC vehicles by 2030 not 2040 and I think the ratio will be close to 70/30 by then.

Gunt, there are many like your self who will stay in an IC vehicle until they put you in a box and throw dirt on top of you. So be it. If you have a lot of people at your funeral, I suspect most of them will have driven there in their EV's. :lol:
That's a shocking prediction... so in ten short years that's going to happen?

Are you thinking it will be forced on everyone by government? Even that I doubt will happen in that time frame

And I drive a hybrid, it's not a realistic vehicle in very cold weather,,or hot for that matter. The gas engine runs continuously

Or hilly places...

Flat land that has very little temp swings is ideal 🤣

gmrocket
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 5165
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:40 pm
Location: Grimsby Ontario

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am

There are some funny videos online of tesla owners being absolutely fine with losing 50% to 60% range in cold weather..

And they are also fine with preheating the car &battery pack for 1 hour before even getting in it to drive. They say that's best because when it's still plugged in, the power to heat the battery pack (so it will actually have enough power to drive) will be coming from the grid, not the battery itself

So an hour each time before driving, and a loss of about 55% range when driving because your sucking power to heat the interior, defrost front window with heated air and rear wire in window defroster.

So immediately after stopping and leaving it parked, you should plug it in, because you are at a reduced range, and the battery also needs to keep warm...but if you are out shopping and parked in a lot that has no plug in... you are forced to mingle park with the dirty disgusting fossil fuel cars... the low life , or poor people .. I think that's the worst part. Knowing your in the mall worried sick with range anxiety, while all the fossil fuel people are shopping without a care in the world.

You might get back home, in limp mode. If you don't use heat, wear your gloves and use a scraper on the windshield so you can see where your going

Gotta go straight home and plug in...even though your friends have called to nvite you over for dinner and drinks ...it's just 5 miles to their place, but they don't have a place where you can plug in. It's shameful friends don't have a place to plug in your car to juice it up.

No such thing as change your plans driving a tesla in the winter, it's a strict regiment of planning your day around your cars range

Whenever I'm low on gas ,, in my fossil fuel rig.. friends always say, come over anyway... we have some gasoline here we can lend you to get back home

gruntguru
Pro
Pro
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 pm
Location:

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gruntguru » Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:43 pm

Sounds like those who live in cold climates will have to stick with oil-burning transportation. Or you could move to somewhere with sane temperatures. Or just wait 'til global warming kicks in.

enigma57
Guru
Guru
Posts: 1562
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:59 pm
Location: Galt's Gulch

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by enigma57 » Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:44 am

Image

Oh, dear!

gmrocket
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 5165
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:40 pm
Location: Grimsby Ontario

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:07 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 9:43 pm
Sounds like those who live in cold climates will have to stick with oil-burning transportation. Or you could move to somewhere with sane temperatures. Or just wait 'til global warming kicks in.
In the hot climates it not much better. Having to run the A/C all the time kills the range.

I live in Ontario Canada.. winter is brutal on my hybrid. Summer isn't any better

The battery pack overheats unless the A/C is on.

It has dual A/C evaporators, the regular one for cabin occupants and a second one for the battery pack..that suck energy.

Right now today, here it's 41C with the humidity..which means the A/C will be on steady..even when the A/C isn't on, there is a good sized fan that brings air into the battery pack to cool it.

Like I said,, areas that are flat with tempid year round temps is the best place for them

gmrocket
HotPass
HotPass
Posts: 5165
Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2008 6:40 pm
Location: Grimsby Ontario

Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:23 pm

Tesla owners in northern areas are saying it can be as much as 50% range loss in the cold.

Even more if your preheating while it's not plugged in..

So it's best to plug in during pre heat so you can get free heat from the unicorn power plant

That's if you can even get in the car..lots of videos online of the door handles not popping out in the cold, or if they do, the windows don't go down so you can open the door...now that's the best way to save on your range distance! Hahahha

Post Reply