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So electric may just be a passing fad again

Anything to do with the electric or hybrid world

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peejay
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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by peejay » Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 pm

gmrocket wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am
There are some funny videos online of tesla owners being absolutely fine with losing 50% to 60% range in cold weather..

And my T-bird went from 17-18mpg to 2mpg in the winter. Giving it a range of about 30 miles. What is the point you are trying to make?

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:09 pm

peejay wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am
There are some funny videos online of tesla owners being absolutely fine with losing 50% to 60% range in cold weather..

And my T-bird went from 17-18mpg to 2mpg in the winter. Giving it a range of about 30 miles. What is the point you are trying to make?
Ya, sure you got just 2mpg 🙄

No person in their right mind would put up with a 50% loss in distance from a full tank in a gas car in cold weather.

The vehicle would be back at the dealers in no time.

Tesla owners are more into being the first in their neighborhood to get a tesla, so they can look virtuous. It's not about saving the planet.

Do you know how to calculate the loss factor(actual mileage) of these vehicles after it charges all night, by a power plant fueled by fossil fuels that's maybe 55% to 80% if your lucky, without the transmission losses(approx another 5%)of being factored in( most people live far away from gen stations) then only gets to just above 80% full charge, and has drastically reduced range by 50% in unfavorable weather?
Last edited by gmrocket on Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by peejay » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:20 pm

gmrocket wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:09 pm
peejay wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:22 am
There are some funny videos online of tesla owners being absolutely fine with losing 50% to 60% range in cold weather..

And my T-bird went from 17-18mpg to 2mpg in the winter. Giving it a range of about 30 miles. What is the point you are trying to make?
Ya, sure it went to 2mpg 🙄

No person in their right mind would put up with a 50% loss in distance from a full tank in a gas car in cold weather.
It's the reality of it. Also, carburetors suck.

You should see what happens with my modern (well, three or four generations old technology) '06 Volvo does when it is cold out. In an effort to get the catalyst lit off, it records about 3mpg driving down the road at 35mph before everything is up to temp. That's the rolling average, not the combined average which includes lots of time stopped in traffic jams because of people in their pickups and SUVs who can't get moving at lights.

Eskimos need to eat 10,000 calories a day just to keep themselves warm, too.

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:34 pm

peejay wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:20 pm
gmrocket wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:09 pm
peejay wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 2:21 pm



And my T-bird went from 17-18mpg to 2mpg in the winter. Giving it a range of about 30 miles. What is the point you are trying to make?
Ya, sure it went to 2mpg 🙄

No person in their right mind would put up with a 50% loss in distance from a full tank in a gas car in cold weather.
It's the reality of it. Also, carburetors suck.

You should see what happens with my modern (well, three or four generations old technology) '06 Volvo does when it is cold out. In an effort to get the catalyst lit off, it records about 3mpg driving down the road at 35mph before everything is up to temp. That's the rolling average, not the combined average which includes lots of time stopped in traffic jams because of people in their pickups and SUVs who can't get moving at lights.

Eskimos need to eat 10,000 calories a day just to keep themselves warm, too.
So you agree, they are useless in northern climates.

What about really hot areas where the A/C also kills the the range? The loss in a gas vehicle isn't nearly as bad

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gruntguru » Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:03 pm

I'm convinced. I used to be a fan of EV's but it looks like the problems are insurmountable. Door handles that stick in cold weather - wow!

Better sell your (insert name of major car company here) shares before they figure out that electric ain't gonna work.

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:22 pm

gruntguru wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:03 pm
I'm convinced. I used to be a fan of EV's but it looks like the problems are insurmountable. Door handles that stick in cold weather - wow!

Better sell your (insert name of major car company here) shares before they figure out that electric ain't gonna work.
So your just a fan? You don't own one?

I drive a hybrid,, I'm speaking from real world experience.

I've tried a few different alternative fueled vehicles. My first was in the early 90',s with a natural gas powered American made V8. Had the home slow refill station and all. It was dual fuel.

That think was more practical than the hybrid I have now. Only issue was the limited amount of fast refill stations in areas away from major urban areas

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gruntguru » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:36 pm

No -- don't own one. I will once the economics add up for me. They are improving so fast I would be crazy to play "early adopter". I know a few folk with EV's but I do live in a warm climate.

Excuse my sarcasm, but I just know all these issues will be solved. It gets cold in Germany, yet Mercedes Benz, BMW and VAG have all made statements about their electric future. Did you know BMW employs over 10,000 engineers - at just one of their many locations?

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:37 am

gruntguru wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:36 pm
No -- don't own one. I will once the economics add up for me. They are improving so fast I would be crazy to play "early adopter". I know a few folk with EV's but I do live in a warm climate.

Excuse my sarcasm, but I just know all these issues will be solved. It gets cold in Germany, yet Mercedes Benz, BMW and VAG have all made statements about their electric future. Did you know BMW employs over 10,000 engineers - at just one of their many locations?
They've been fighting the range problem for about 170 years. How many engineers over all that time have been trying to figure it out?

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gruntguru » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:14 pm

Production EVs have been around for about 120 years. For most of that time no one was fighting the range problem. Petroleum was cheap and few people knew we were destroying the environment. (some still don't)

Image

Data from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ic_vehicle

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:06 am

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:14 pm
Production EVs have been around for about 120 years. For most of that time no one was fighting the range problem. Petroleum was cheap and few people knew we were destroying the environment. (some still don't)

Image

Data from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... ic_vehicle
Your funny,, over and over again in that article it mentions they had low range and were best suited as city cars.

First electric vehicles were built around 1830. In Europe they were producing electric cars for between 1850 and 1900, long before America got on board.

They even experimented with quick change battery replacement stations because it took to long to charge...wow, exact same thing being talked about today

All of that is in your article

When you say we are destroying the environment,, how does an electric car get its power? Would that be from a power plant using fossil fuel?

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gruntguru » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:12 am

Glad you took the time to read the Wikipedia page - pity you chose to cherry pick it rather than learn anything. You asked this question: . . . .
They've been fighting the range problem for about 170 years. How many engineers over all that time have been trying to figure it out?"
and I answered it. If you look at the graph a rational person might conclude that the "range problem" is close to being solved. For 99% of journeys the range problem is already solved.

The real problem is price. The lifetime cost of EV's is still not competitive with fossil fuelled vehicles but that is changing rapidly.

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gruntguru » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:21 am

gmrocket wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:06 am
When you say we are destroying the environment, how does an electric car get its power? Would that be from a power plant using fossil fuel?
You are obviously talking about CO2 emissions which are lower for EV's - even when running on 100% coal-fired electricity. Of course very few places sell that kind of electricity and the % of coal generation is only going to reduce.

I said "we were destroying the environment" note the past tense. Global warming was not "destroying the environment" back then and even now is only starting to do actual damage. We have been "destroying the environment" since the industrial revolution and noxious emissions from vehicles have contributed in a general way as well as directly by shortening millions of human lives.

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:24 am

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:12 am
Glad you took the time to read the Wikipedia page - pity you chose to cherry pick it rather than learn anything. You asked this question: . . . .
They've been fighting the range problem for about 170 years. How many engineers over all that time have been trying to figure it out?"
and I answered it. If you look at the graph a rational person might conclude that the "range problem" is close to being solved. For 99% of journeys the range problem is already solved.

The real problem is price. The lifetime cost of EV's is still not competitive with fossil fuelled vehicles but that is changing rapidly.
The range problem is far from being solved..

You have no clue.. you proved that when you said you don't want to be an early adopter. Your like a lot of people who think this electric car thing is new.

I'm driving up north tomorrow,, gotta use the a/c therevand back,,,it's a 5 hour drive. Sometimes 6 or more hours of the traffic is bad.

You think a tesla would make it? Where are the fast charging stations?

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by gmrocket » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:26 am

gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:21 am
gmrocket wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:06 am
When you say we are destroying the environment, how does an electric car get its power? Would that be from a power plant using fossil fuel?
You are obviously talking about CO2 emissions which are lower for EV's - even when running on 100% coal-fired electricity. Of course very few places sell that kind of electricity and the % of coal generation is only going to reduce.

I said "we were destroying the environment" note the past tense. Global warming was not "destroying the environment" back then and even now is only starting to do actual damage. We have been "destroying the environment" since the industrial revolution and noxious emissions from vehicles have contributed in a general way as well as directly by shortening millions of human lives.
Oh jeeez, you a climate alarmist too?

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Re: So electric may just be a passing fad again

Post by GRTfast » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:27 am

gmrocket wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:26 am
gruntguru wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:21 am
gmrocket wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:06 am
When you say we are destroying the environment, how does an electric car get its power? Would that be from a power plant using fossil fuel?
You are obviously talking about CO2 emissions which are lower for EV's - even when running on 100% coal-fired electricity. Of course very few places sell that kind of electricity and the % of coal generation is only going to reduce.

I said "we were destroying the environment" note the past tense. Global warming was not "destroying the environment" back then and even now is only starting to do actual damage. We have been "destroying the environment" since the industrial revolution and noxious emissions from vehicles have contributed in a general way as well as directly by shortening millions of human lives.
Oh jeeez, you a climate alarmist too?
Probably not the best idea to go down that road in this section of the forum. Do what you will though.

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