Why would you want a electric car ?

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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by SupStk »

Total cost per mile isn't what I consider affordable yet. The comparison of KWH to fuel prices may sound attractive but that isn't the total cost. The needed infrastructure isn't going to be inexpensive and I suspect that will be added cost for power.

I don't buy new cars and do my own service work. Heard stories of EVs out of warranty, needed repairs often exceed the vehicle value. I don't see EVs being an economic triumph in the present time, probably less when incentives are removed.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by PackardV8 »

SupStk wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:07 am Total cost per mile isn't what I consider affordable yet. The comparison of KWH to fuel prices may sound attractive but that isn't the total cost. The needed infrastructure isn't going to be inexpensive and I suspect that will be added cost for power.

I don't buy new cars and do my own service work. Heard stories of EVs out of warranty, needed repairs often exceed the vehicle value. I don't see EVs being an economic triumph in the present time, probably less when incentives are removed.
Your thoughts, your money, your decision.

Having built ICEs for sixty years, I know the worst thing one can do is to regularly take them on short runs in cold weather. With an EV no problem; plus, the cabin can be warmed while plugged into the grid, no wasted fuel, no direct pollution. For us, for local use, the EVs are just so preferrable to ICEs, I'll never go back.

As to repairs exceeding the vehicle value, that happens to ICEs all the time. At present, I know of a BMW and an Audi, both with perfect bodies and good engines, but the cost of a complete drivetrain R&R exceeds the book value of the vehicle. They're both going to the wrecking yard auction.

Bottom line - with a paid-for ICE in the garage, we knew the EV would never pay out in fuel savings, but it's just so much better for our daily use, we spent the money and have been smiling for almost five years now.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by SupStk »

I'm not an EV hater. Really think they are the future wave for commuter transport. Jack, you and some of the others made some good points. At this time they don't fit my budget or lifestyle.

I can believe your comments on some ICE vehicles needing repairs beyond the value of the car. Always been told there is nothing more expensive than a cheap German car.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

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SupStk wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:32 pmI can believe your comments on some ICE vehicles needing repairs beyond the value of the car. Always been told there is nothing more expensive than a cheap German car.
Getting way OT, but the few times I've driven the big V12 Mercs and BMWs, I've loved them, especially the coupes (850i) and converts (SL600). They've gotten old enough that one could afford one as a toy; however, even though it only costs $10,000 to buy, it's still a $100,000 car to maintain.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by gruntguru »

PSA wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:31 amI really don't mind electric cars, especially if it means that we can keep our old cars and race cars for recreational use in the future.
But here it's not more "green" at the moment, as the green politics has shut down nuclear power plants, so we are burning oil here and importing coal power from other countries. 1kw/h was $0.88 the other day.
Where is "here"? Nobody burns oil to make electricity anymore. No one pays $0.88/kW.hr for electricity - average price. Sure "Spot Prices" go up and down minute by minute but picking a peak off a spot price chart doesn't tell you anything about how much it costs to run an EV.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by PSA »

gruntguru wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:50 pm
PSA wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:31 amI really don't mind electric cars, especially if it means that we can keep our old cars and race cars for recreational use in the future.
But here it's not more "green" at the moment, as the green politics has shut down nuclear power plants, so we are burning oil here and importing coal power from other countries. 1kw/h was $0.88 the other day.
Where is "here"? Nobody burns oil to make electricity anymore. No one pays $0.88/kW.hr for electricity - average price. Sure "Spot Prices" go up and down minute by minute but picking a peak off a spot price chart doesn't tell you anything about how much it costs to run an EV.
They still burn oil here in Europe for electricity, not as main source but it's still used, especially now when it's cold. Yes it was the price during one hour or so, it moves all the time, it's been somewhere between that price and say $0.5 for the last couple of weeks. I'm not saying that it's a reflection on how viable EV is in any way, just that it's a long way to go before everything is adjusted in the infrastructure for them.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by PackardV8 »

In another life, I was a US Army officer traveling in Europe in 1969. In below freezing conditions, while staying in a gasthaus, one had to continually feed Deutschmarks in a timer in the wall heater to get any heat in the room. Europeans have forever been accustomed to being frugal with generated power.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by gruntguru »

PSA wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:27 pmThey still burn oil here in Europe for electricity, not as main source but it's still used, especially now when it's cold. Yes it was the price during one hour or so, it moves all the time, it's been somewhere between that price and say $0.5 for the last couple of weeks. I'm not saying that it's a reflection on how viable EV is in any way, just that it's a long way to go before everything is adjusted in the infrastructure for them.
You must live in a backwoods. The rest of Europe generated 1.3% of its electricity from oil (in 2019 - even less now)

Image

Oh - and you're paying too much for electricity.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=elec ... nt=gws-wiz

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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by PSA »

gruntguru wrote: Fri Dec 10, 2021 3:36 am
PSA wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 8:27 pmThey still burn oil here in Europe for electricity, not as main source but it's still used, especially now when it's cold. Yes it was the price during one hour or so, it moves all the time, it's been somewhere between that price and say $0.5 for the last couple of weeks. I'm not saying that it's a reflection on how viable EV is in any way, just that it's a long way to go before everything is adjusted in the infrastructure for them.
You must live in a backwoods. The rest of Europe generated 1.3% of its electricity from oil (in 2019 - even less now)

Image

Oh - and you're paying too much for electricity.
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=elec ... nt=gws-wiz

Image
They use oil as backup; during the winter for demand and during the summer if the price from the rest of the market is too high.
Coal is used more frequently as far as I know.

Europe doesn't have any borders in regards to electricity, it's a constant movement (import/export) between countries. But that's a matter distance, so some countries will have greater differences in price from one end to the other than compared to another country. Taxes on the electricity is one thing that can be different between countries though.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by Nikolas Ojala »

gruntguru wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:50 pm
Of course there are downsides:
- higher sticker price
- range
- recharge time

All of which are rapidly improving.
Yes, they are all improving. But will they reach the state of good enough, and how long would that take.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by PackardV8 »

EVs are already there; today's EVs can handle 99% of US daily use. Holding out they can't do the last 1% is just sophistry.

sophistry
[ˈsäfəstrē]
the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving.
The gas buggy will never replace horses. A horse can eat grass along the way. These new gas buggys need some kind of fuel stations. Thousands and thousands of them. Which in turn would have to restocked again and again with some fueling agent because gasoline didn’t grow on the side of the road.

And while talking about the great new opportunities with cars, one also had to focus on what replacing the horse as basic transportation would mean to existing industries. Next to railroads and agriculture, horse raising was the biggest industry in the country and provided direct and indirect employment for millions of Americans. Would you want companies in this huge industry to go under? Would you want their workers to become unemployed?

Automobiles were a rich man’s toy. They would never be manufactured at a cost that would make them practical to the ordinary person. All the numbers and simple common sense made clear that an auto-based culture was a pipe dream. A nice pipe dream, perhaps, but one that must not guide national economic policy.
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by Nikolas Ojala »

PackardV8 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:11 pm
EVs are already there; today's EVs can handle 99% of US daily use. Holding out they can't do the last 1% is just sophistry.
I did not say that an EV was not good enough for you.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
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Re: Why would you want a electric car ?

Post by PSA »

I'm sure the technology will develop more quickly now and a lot of things we might worry about will be dealt with and improved. That might include infrastructure acting like our gas stations today, for instance auxiliary batteries of standardized form.
I also believe that hybrids will be improved greatly, a combustion engine that could for instance run at a more static rpm and be complimented with recovery systems (like F1) should be environmentally friendly enough for the future.

As long as we can keep classic ICE cars for enjoyment and racing I'm happy.
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