Novice Modified 289 Heads

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Stan Weiss
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by Stan Weiss »

The MCSA (minimum cross sectional area) is USER set able. The graphs let you move the mouse to a point and will readout the numbers for both axis. But you can also turn on moveable line that will also readout. I have a vertical and horizontal lines crossed where the MCSA fps crosses the curtain area fps.

Stan
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by digger »

that's neat, i like the idea of the different FPS curves for the throat, MCSA, etc the average is sometimes misleading
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by David Vizard »

digger wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:09 pm
Stan Weiss wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:14 pm Everyone seem to have their own way they want to see the data. In my software while I don't graph all of the different ways I do try to show the data in my text report.

Stan

Code: Select all

Pressing_the_._key_will_cause_this_Page_to_be_Written_to_a_Disk_File.

Bore_=_4.35_____Stroke_=_4.5_______________Rod_Length_=_6.75_____RPM_=_6500
Wrist_Pin_Offset_=_0.0_____________________Number_of_-_Intake_Valves_=_1_-_Exhaust_Valves_=_1
Intake_Valve_Size_=_2.23___________________Exhaust_Valve_Size_=_1.72
Intake_Valve_/_Bore_Ratio_=_0.512644_______Exhaust_Valve_/_Bore_Ratio_=_0.395402
Intake_Valve_Area_=_3.905707_sq._in._______Exhaust_Valve_Area_=_2.323522_sq._in.
Intake_Valve_Stem_Size_=_0.3415____________Exhaust_Valve_Stem_Size_=_0.3415
Intake_Valve_Stem_Area_=_0.091595_sq._in.__Exhaust_Valve_Stem_Area_=_0.091595_sq._in.
Valve_Lift_at_which_the_Valve_Area_and_Window_/_Curtain_Area_are_the_SAME_SIZE
At_that_point_the_velocity_will_be_the_same_in_both_areas
Intake_Valve_Lift_=_0.5575_Inches__________Exhaust_Valve_Lift_=_0.43_Inches
Intake_Centerline_=_111.0__________________User_Selected_DC_-_Discharge_Coefficient_=_0.5
Throat_CSA_(0.91)_Intake_=_3.1427_sq._in.__Throat_CSA_(0.91)_Exhaust_=_1.8325_sq._in.
Effective_Throat_CSA_=_0.89702_____________Effective_Throat_CSA_=_0.88808
Valve_Lift_at_which_the_Throat_Area_and_Window_/_Curtain_Area_are_the_SAME_SIZE
At_that_point_the_velocity_will_be_the_same_in_both_areas
Intake_Valve_Lift_=_0.44859_Inches_________Exhaust_Valve_Lift_=_0.33913_Inches
Intake_Valve_Seat_Angle_=_45.0_____________Intake_Valve_Seat_Width_=_0.05
Exhaust_Valve_Seat_Angle_=_45.0____________Exhaust_Valve_Seat_Width_=_0.055
User_-_Intake_MCSA_=_3.03295_______________User_-_Exhaust_MCSA_=_1.830132


_____Intake________------_Curtain_-----___Effective__---_Throat_--____----_Valve_---____----_MCSA_----
_Lift______CFM_____fps_______DC_____Area____Area______fps_______DC______fps_______DC______fps_______DC
_.2000__166.000__284.338___0.8117___1.401___1.137__126.769___0.3619__102.005___0.2912__131.357___0.3750
_.3000__227.000__259.216___0.7400___2.102___1.555__173.353___0.4949__139.488___0.3982__179.627___0.5128
_.4000__294.000__251.793___0.7188___2.802___2.014__224.519___0.6409__180.659___0.5157__232.645___0.6641
_.5000__357.000__244.599___0.6983___3.503___2.446__272.630___0.7783__219.371___0.6262__282.497___0.8064
_.6000__400.000__228.384___0.6520___4.203___2.741__305.468___0.8720__245.794___0.7017__316.524___0.9036
_.7000__426.000__208.482___0.5952___4.904___2.919__325.323___0.9287__261.771___0.7473__337.098___0.9623
_.8000__432.000__184.991___0.5281___5.605___2.960__329.905___0.9418__265.458___0.7578__341.845___0.9759
_.9000__434.000__165.198___0.4716___6.305___2.973__331.433___0.9461__266.687___0.7613__343.428___0.9804
1.0000__433.000__148.335___0.4235___7.006___2.967__330.669___0.9440__266.072___0.7596__342.637___0.9781
Avg_____352.111__219.482___0.6266___4.203___2.412__268.897___0.7676__216.367___0.6177__278.629___0.7954


_____Intake_______%_Step___--------_CFM_per_Sq._In._-------____L/D___Lift___________Sq_In
_Lift______CFM__Increase___Throat____Valve__Curtain_____MCSA__Ratio___mm____M^3/s____Area____fps
_.2000__166.000____________52.820___42.502__118.474___54.732__.090___5.08__0.0783___1.161__343.138
_.3000__227.000____36.75___72.230___58.120__108.006___74.845__.135___7.62__0.1071___1.841__295.950
_.4000__294.000____29.52___93.550___75.274__104.914___96.935__.179__10.16__0.1388___2.526__279.346
_.5000__357.000____21.43__113.596___91.405__101.916__117.707__.224__12.70__0.1685___3.143__272.630
_.6000__400.000____12.04__127.278__102.414___95.160__131.885__.269__15.24__0.1888___3.143__305.468
_.7000__426.000_____6.50__135.551__109.071___86.867__140.457__.314__17.78__0.2010___3.143__325.323
_.8000__432.000_____1.41__137.461__110.607___77.080__142.436__.359__20.32__0.2039___3.143__329.905
_.9000__434.000______.46__138.097__111.119___68.832__143.095__.404__22.86__0.2048___3.143__331.433
1.0000__433.000_____-.23__137.779__110.863___61.806__142.765__.448__25.40__0.2044___3.143__330.669
Avg_____352.111___________112.040___90.153___91.451__116.095


_____Exhaust_______------_Curtain_-----___Effective__---_Throat_--____----_Valve_---____----_MCSA_----
_Lift______CFM_____fps_______DC_____Area____Area______fps_______DC______fps_______DC______fps_______DC
_.2000__114.000__253.167___0.7227___1.081____.781__149.303___0.4262__117.752___0.3361__149.497___0.4268
_.3000__168.000__248.726___0.7100___1.621___1.151__220.026___0.6281__173.530___0.4954__220.312___0.6289
_.4000__215.000__238.732___0.6815___2.161___1.473__281.580___0.8038__222.077___0.6340__281.947___0.8049
_.5000__238.000__211.417___0.6035___2.702___1.631__311.703___0.8898__245.834___0.7018__312.109___0.8910
_.6000__254.000__188.025___0.5368___3.242___1.740__332.658___0.9496__262.360___0.7490__333.091___0.9509
_.7000__267.000__169.413___0.4836___3.782___1.829__349.684___0.9982__275.788___0.7873__350.139___0.9995
_.8000__281.000__156.009___0.4454___4.323___1.925__368.019___1.0506__290.249___0.8286__368.498___1.0520
_.9000__285.000__140.649___0.4015___4.863___1.953__373.258___1.0655__294.381___0.8404__373.744___1.0669
1.0000__290.000__128.804___0.3677___5.404___1.987__379.806___1.0842__299.545___0.8551__380.300___1.0856
Avg_____234.667__192.771___0.5503___3.242___1.608__307.337___0.8774__242.391___0.6920__307.737___0.8785


_____Exhaust______%_Step___--------_CFM_per_Sq._In._-------____L/D___Lift
_Lift______CFM__Increase___Throat____Valve__Curtain_____MCSA__Ratio___mm____M^3/s
_.2000__114.000____________62.210___49.063__105.486___62.291__.116___5.08__0.0538
_.3000__168.000____47.37___91.677___72.304__103.636___91.797__.174___7.62__0.0793
_.4000__215.000____27.98__117.325___92.532___99.472__117.478__.233__10.16__0.1015
_.5000__238.000____10.70__129.876__102.431___88.090__130.045__.291__12.70__0.1123
_.6000__254.000_____6.72__138.607__109.317___78.344__138.788__.349__15.24__0.1199
_.7000__267.000_____5.12__145.702__114.912___70.589__145.891__.407__17.78__0.1260
_.8000__281.000_____5.24__153.341__120.937___65.004__153.541__.465__20.32__0.1326
_.9000__285.000_____1.42__155.524__122.659___58.604__155.726__.523__22.86__0.1345
1.0000__290.000_____1.75__158.253__124.811___53.669__158.459__.581__25.40__0.1369
Avg_____234.667___________128.057__100.996___80.321__128.224
Stan i notice you have both these which makes sense

Valve_Lift_at_which_the_Throat_Area_and_Window_/_Curtain_Area_are_the_SAME_SIZE
Valve_Lift_at_which_the_Valve_Area_and_Window_/_Curtain_Area_are_the_SAME_SIZE

what if you have an upstream secondary choke point that isn't the actual throat? the lift where the "choke" area starts to dictate will be somewhat lower
Digger,
IOP allows to can enter whatever area you feel is significant. However an area smaller than the area presented at the valve need not be the 'choke' area. It depends on the local 'discharge coefficient' of the part of the port being questioned.
DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 2 months. My shop or yours. Contact for seminar deails - davidvizardseminar@gmail.com for details.
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by David Vizard »

digger wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:58 pm that's neat, i like the idea of the different FPS curves for the throat, MCSA, etc the average is sometimes misleading
Digger,

On the contrary if the relevance of the the mean port speed are understood the number produced can be compared with a proven yardstick.

I PM'ed you for your Phone # so I can fill in the details then you can explain it to the rest of the posters.

DV
David Vizard Small Group Performance Seminars - held about every 2 months. My shop or yours. Contact for seminar deails - davidvizardseminar@gmail.com for details.
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by digger »

David Vizard wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:15 pm
digger wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:09 pm
Stan Weiss wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 6:14 pm Everyone seem to have their own way they want to see the data. In my software while I don't graph all of the different ways I do try to show the data in my text report.

Stan

Code: Select all

Pressing_the_._key_will_cause_this_Page_to_be_Written_to_a_Disk_File.

Bore_=_4.35_____Stroke_=_4.5_______________Rod_Length_=_6.75_____RPM_=_6500
Wrist_Pin_Offset_=_0.0_____________________Number_of_-_Intake_Valves_=_1_-_Exhaust_Valves_=_1
Intake_Valve_Size_=_2.23___________________Exhaust_Valve_Size_=_1.72
Intake_Valve_/_Bore_Ratio_=_0.512644_______Exhaust_Valve_/_Bore_Ratio_=_0.395402
Intake_Valve_Area_=_3.905707_sq._in._______Exhaust_Valve_Area_=_2.323522_sq._in.
Intake_Valve_Stem_Size_=_0.3415____________Exhaust_Valve_Stem_Size_=_0.3415
Intake_Valve_Stem_Area_=_0.091595_sq._in.__Exhaust_Valve_Stem_Area_=_0.091595_sq._in.
Valve_Lift_at_which_the_Valve_Area_and_Window_/_Curtain_Area_are_the_SAME_SIZE
At_that_point_the_velocity_will_be_the_same_in_both_areas
Intake_Valve_Lift_=_0.5575_Inches__________Exhaust_Valve_Lift_=_0.43_Inches
Intake_Centerline_=_111.0__________________User_Selected_DC_-_Discharge_Coefficient_=_0.5
Throat_CSA_(0.91)_Intake_=_3.1427_sq._in.__Throat_CSA_(0.91)_Exhaust_=_1.8325_sq._in.
Effective_Throat_CSA_=_0.89702_____________Effective_Throat_CSA_=_0.88808
Valve_Lift_at_which_the_Throat_Area_and_Window_/_Curtain_Area_are_the_SAME_SIZE
At_that_point_the_velocity_will_be_the_same_in_both_areas
Intake_Valve_Lift_=_0.44859_Inches_________Exhaust_Valve_Lift_=_0.33913_Inches
Intake_Valve_Seat_Angle_=_45.0_____________Intake_Valve_Seat_Width_=_0.05
Exhaust_Valve_Seat_Angle_=_45.0____________Exhaust_Valve_Seat_Width_=_0.055
User_-_Intake_MCSA_=_3.03295_______________User_-_Exhaust_MCSA_=_1.830132


_____Intake________------_Curtain_-----___Effective__---_Throat_--____----_Valve_---____----_MCSA_----
_Lift______CFM_____fps_______DC_____Area____Area______fps_______DC______fps_______DC______fps_______DC
_.2000__166.000__284.338___0.8117___1.401___1.137__126.769___0.3619__102.005___0.2912__131.357___0.3750
_.3000__227.000__259.216___0.7400___2.102___1.555__173.353___0.4949__139.488___0.3982__179.627___0.5128
_.4000__294.000__251.793___0.7188___2.802___2.014__224.519___0.6409__180.659___0.5157__232.645___0.6641
_.5000__357.000__244.599___0.6983___3.503___2.446__272.630___0.7783__219.371___0.6262__282.497___0.8064
_.6000__400.000__228.384___0.6520___4.203___2.741__305.468___0.8720__245.794___0.7017__316.524___0.9036
_.7000__426.000__208.482___0.5952___4.904___2.919__325.323___0.9287__261.771___0.7473__337.098___0.9623
_.8000__432.000__184.991___0.5281___5.605___2.960__329.905___0.9418__265.458___0.7578__341.845___0.9759
_.9000__434.000__165.198___0.4716___6.305___2.973__331.433___0.9461__266.687___0.7613__343.428___0.9804
1.0000__433.000__148.335___0.4235___7.006___2.967__330.669___0.9440__266.072___0.7596__342.637___0.9781
Avg_____352.111__219.482___0.6266___4.203___2.412__268.897___0.7676__216.367___0.6177__278.629___0.7954


_____Intake_______%_Step___--------_CFM_per_Sq._In._-------____L/D___Lift___________Sq_In
_Lift______CFM__Increase___Throat____Valve__Curtain_____MCSA__Ratio___mm____M^3/s____Area____fps
_.2000__166.000____________52.820___42.502__118.474___54.732__.090___5.08__0.0783___1.161__343.138
_.3000__227.000____36.75___72.230___58.120__108.006___74.845__.135___7.62__0.1071___1.841__295.950
_.4000__294.000____29.52___93.550___75.274__104.914___96.935__.179__10.16__0.1388___2.526__279.346
_.5000__357.000____21.43__113.596___91.405__101.916__117.707__.224__12.70__0.1685___3.143__272.630
_.6000__400.000____12.04__127.278__102.414___95.160__131.885__.269__15.24__0.1888___3.143__305.468
_.7000__426.000_____6.50__135.551__109.071___86.867__140.457__.314__17.78__0.2010___3.143__325.323
_.8000__432.000_____1.41__137.461__110.607___77.080__142.436__.359__20.32__0.2039___3.143__329.905
_.9000__434.000______.46__138.097__111.119___68.832__143.095__.404__22.86__0.2048___3.143__331.433
1.0000__433.000_____-.23__137.779__110.863___61.806__142.765__.448__25.40__0.2044___3.143__330.669
Avg_____352.111___________112.040___90.153___91.451__116.095


_____Exhaust_______------_Curtain_-----___Effective__---_Throat_--____----_Valve_---____----_MCSA_----
_Lift______CFM_____fps_______DC_____Area____Area______fps_______DC______fps_______DC______fps_______DC
_.2000__114.000__253.167___0.7227___1.081____.781__149.303___0.4262__117.752___0.3361__149.497___0.4268
_.3000__168.000__248.726___0.7100___1.621___1.151__220.026___0.6281__173.530___0.4954__220.312___0.6289
_.4000__215.000__238.732___0.6815___2.161___1.473__281.580___0.8038__222.077___0.6340__281.947___0.8049
_.5000__238.000__211.417___0.6035___2.702___1.631__311.703___0.8898__245.834___0.7018__312.109___0.8910
_.6000__254.000__188.025___0.5368___3.242___1.740__332.658___0.9496__262.360___0.7490__333.091___0.9509
_.7000__267.000__169.413___0.4836___3.782___1.829__349.684___0.9982__275.788___0.7873__350.139___0.9995
_.8000__281.000__156.009___0.4454___4.323___1.925__368.019___1.0506__290.249___0.8286__368.498___1.0520
_.9000__285.000__140.649___0.4015___4.863___1.953__373.258___1.0655__294.381___0.8404__373.744___1.0669
1.0000__290.000__128.804___0.3677___5.404___1.987__379.806___1.0842__299.545___0.8551__380.300___1.0856
Avg_____234.667__192.771___0.5503___3.242___1.608__307.337___0.8774__242.391___0.6920__307.737___0.8785


_____Exhaust______%_Step___--------_CFM_per_Sq._In._-------____L/D___Lift
_Lift______CFM__Increase___Throat____Valve__Curtain_____MCSA__Ratio___mm____M^3/s
_.2000__114.000____________62.210___49.063__105.486___62.291__.116___5.08__0.0538
_.3000__168.000____47.37___91.677___72.304__103.636___91.797__.174___7.62__0.0793
_.4000__215.000____27.98__117.325___92.532___99.472__117.478__.233__10.16__0.1015
_.5000__238.000____10.70__129.876__102.431___88.090__130.045__.291__12.70__0.1123
_.6000__254.000_____6.72__138.607__109.317___78.344__138.788__.349__15.24__0.1199
_.7000__267.000_____5.12__145.702__114.912___70.589__145.891__.407__17.78__0.1260
_.8000__281.000_____5.24__153.341__120.937___65.004__153.541__.465__20.32__0.1326
_.9000__285.000_____1.42__155.524__122.659___58.604__155.726__.523__22.86__0.1345
1.0000__290.000_____1.75__158.253__124.811___53.669__158.459__.581__25.40__0.1369
Avg_____234.667___________128.057__100.996___80.321__128.224
Stan i notice you have both these which makes sense

Valve_Lift_at_which_the_Throat_Area_and_Window_/_Curtain_Area_are_the_SAME_SIZE
Valve_Lift_at_which_the_Valve_Area_and_Window_/_Curtain_Area_are_the_SAME_SIZE

what if you have an upstream secondary choke point that isn't the actual throat? the lift where the "choke" area starts to dictate will be somewhat lower
Digger,
IOP allows to can enter whatever area you feel is significant. However an area smaller than the area presented at the valve need not be the 'choke' area. It depends on the local 'discharge coefficient' of the part of the port being questioned.
DV
i agree a choke point the straight section of the port with nice divergent and convergent shape will be less problematic than one at the start of short side that is far from ideal already
David Vizard wrote: Tue Jul 23, 2019 1:22 pm
digger wrote: Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:58 pm that's neat, i like the idea of the different FPS curves for the throat, MCSA, etc the average is sometimes misleading
Digger,

On the contrary if the relevance of the the mean port speed are understood the number produced can be compared with a proven yardstick.

I PM'ed you for your Phone # so I can fill in the details then you can explain it to the rest of the posters.

DV
i don't disagree that its a good yardstick in an absolute sense. but as you know things are always more complicated than they seem. i bet if you used the average based on the entire runner "size" rather than just the head port the numbers would drop as with the taper the further upstream you go the slower it is so the average speed gets pulled down because the area is pulled up. So id rather know at all of the following the average, the throat, the choke, and along points within the manifold where possible.

wouldn't it be easier for you to post it here to avoid the Chinese whispers?
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by David Vizard »

Digger,
What are chinese whispers???

I have more to talk on than just this subject so a call would work for me.
DV
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by digger »

David Vizard wrote: Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:25 pm Digger,
What are chinese whispers???

I have more to talk on than just this subject so a call would work for me.
DV
you tell someone something and when they tell another persons the actual message gets distorted as they put their own spin and interpretation and then they tell another person and so on eventually the message becomes totally incorrect
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by The Iron Icon »

Hey guys, haven't stopped work on heads yet and hope to be able to post some results or updates about them this weekend, over the past 2 weeks I've been busy, even more so after having getting sprayed in the face accidentally by some bleach by a not so aware employee at job. But I still think there are some stuff on heads that DV and i can do that will be interesting to share.
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by RevTheory »

How are the heads coming along, Phil?
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by The Iron Icon »

RevTheory wrote: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:14 pm How are the heads coming along, Phil?
Just doing some more work on valves and getting ready to flow to see if we can get some more improvement. Will hopefully have new numbers by end of day.
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by The Iron Icon »

Well guys we have some more information but are going to be double checking it later this month, however we do have something that you all might enjoy. The first part of the video DV and I are doing on the heads. It is now on YouTube and I'll post link in next post.
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by The Iron Icon »

RevTheory
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by RevTheory »

Give 'er some hips, brother :lol:

Your porting skills are progressing nicely and you're a natural in front of the camera. Those things terrify me. Well done, dude.
Carnut1
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by Carnut1 »

Good video, hips! Slows the air. Nice to see DV and some changes to the shop. Chamber shape looks good.
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cgarb
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Re: Novice Modified 289 Heads

Post by cgarb »

Watched the video and was curious how many CC's the combustion chamber ended up and what those modifications are worth in terms of flow?
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