Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by Elroy »

speierracing.//your 23 degree example///can the head have very high pitot readings yet be to big in your opinion in these type of engines?//
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:22 pm And don't forget that Super Stock heads are sitting on top of a high dollar shortblock. Billet pistons, $2000 rings, Ultra lite cranks....
yes but these are not ve related contributors///for the sake of this conversation/induction-VE/short block I view as VE preservation/A hypothetical question. What would make more power/ A good shortblock with amazing induction/ or an amazing shortblock with good induction?/I know what road I would take
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

Elroy wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:12 am speierracing.//your 23 degree example///can the head have very high pitot readings yet be to big in your opinion in these type of engines?//
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:22 pm And don't forget that Super Stock heads are sitting on top of a high dollar shortblock. Billet pistons, $2000 rings, Ultra lite cranks....
yes but these are not ve related contributors///for the sake of this conversation/induction-VE/short block I view as VE preservation/A hypothetical question. What would make more power/ A good shortblock with amazing induction/ or an amazing shortblock with good induction?/I know what road I would take
Have high pitot readings and still be too big? Absolutely! That is why knowing engine demand is still important.

The most economical is a good shortblock with amazing induction.

Besides average airspeed is most important.
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by CamKing »

SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm Thought some might find this interesting. Maybe a discussion with some dyno results. This might not be a perfect A/B test, but the heads were the same and the components.

Basic engine:
4.165 x 3.48
Both LW Scat cranks
Both Mahle pistons
Both 6.000 rods
Same oil pans

Engine 1:
Whitener 1000hp 4150 VP113 fuel
13.50 compression
Vacuum pump w/11.2"
260/268 Solid Roller
.680 at retainers
106 LSA 102 ICL
677@7300 --- 545@5400
Calculating the efficiency of the output from engine #1, I would say you're right at the limit of that port. It can make more power with a larger cam, and more RPM, but it won't be as efficient.
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by PackardV8 »

SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:57 pmI just don't think many realize how efficient the shortblocks are in those engines.
Interesting debate, Chad. For the sake of discussion, on the 358"s in question, estimate a horsepower gain from the efficient short block versus just what we'd put together for our typical line-honed-mains, square-decked-block, diamond-honed bores, balanced street short block? The one area we think we're leaving horsepower on the table is most of our conservative customers building obsolete engines are not yet comfortable with paying for custom coated pistons with the thin metric rings. With SBCs, that's a non-issue, as they're a catalog item. Where else in the short block do you see horsepower gains?
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by Elroy »

SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:02 am The most economical is a good shortblock with amazing induction.
Economics is not a part of the hypothetical :oops: ///were both ports same throat size what percent of 2.08///doing some ciphering
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

PackardV8 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:40 am
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:57 pmI just don't think many realize how efficient the shortblocks are in those engines.
Interesting debate, Chad. For the sake of discussion, on the 358"s in question, estimate a horsepower gain from the efficient short block versus just what we'd put together for our typical line-honed-mains, square-decked-block, diamond-honed bores, balanced street short block? The one area we think we're leaving horsepower on the table is most of our conservative customers building obsolete engines are not yet comfortable with paying for custom coated pistons with the thin metric rings. With SBCs, that's a non-issue, as they're a catalog item. Where else in the short block do you see horsepower gains?
I have one sitting here, I could take the pan off. lol.. :)

My one customer has one engine with all the good stuff and one engine that is just well built. Heads are the same. Around 30hp according to him.
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

Elroy wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:53 am
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:02 am The most economical is a good shortblock with amazing induction.
Economics is not a part of the hypothetical :oops: ///were both ports same throat size what percent of 2.08///doing some ciphering
91.5% throat with 45 degree seat
91.5% exhaust throat with 45 degree seat.

Both engines, same.
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

PackardV8 wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:40 am
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:57 pmI just don't think many realize how efficient the shortblocks are in those engines.
Interesting debate, Chad. For the sake of discussion, on the 358"s in question, estimate a horsepower gain from the efficient short block versus just what we'd put together for our typical line-honed-mains, square-decked-block, diamond-honed bores, balanced street short block? The one area we think we're leaving horsepower on the table is most of our conservative customers building obsolete engines are not yet comfortable with paying for custom coated pistons with the thin metric rings. With SBCs, that's a non-issue, as they're a catalog item. Where else in the short block do you see horsepower gains?
This made 650@6900. It came back because we are trying something different in the manifold.

Image

Manifold that was on it.

Image
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

CamKing wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:20 am
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm Thought some might find this interesting. Maybe a discussion with some dyno results. This might not be a perfect A/B test, but the heads were the same and the components.

Basic engine:
4.165 x 3.48
Both LW Scat cranks
Both Mahle pistons
Both 6.000 rods
Same oil pans

Engine 1:
Whitener 1000hp 4150 VP113 fuel
13.50 compression
Vacuum pump w/11.2"
260/268 Solid Roller
.680 at retainers
106 LSA 102 ICL
677@7300 --- 545@5400
Calculating the efficiency of the output from engine #1, I would say you're right at the limit of that port. It can make more power with a larger cam, and more RPM, but it won't be as efficient.
YES, totally agree. Using my Leverton spreadsheet, it was using all of the cross section and flow to make that power at 7300 rpm based on 146 cfm sq/in.

Image
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by David Vizard »

SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm Thought some might find this interesting. Maybe a discussion with some dyno results. This might not be a perfect A/B test, but the heads were the same and the components.

Basic engine:
4.165 x 3.48
Both LW Scat cranks
Both Mahle pistons
Both 6.000 rods
Same oil pans

Engine 1:
Whitener 1000hp 4150 VP113 fuel
13.50 compression
Vacuum pump w/11.2"
260/268 Solid Roller
.680 at retainers
106 LSA 102 ICL
677@7300 --- 545@5400

Engine 2:
Siebert 750 4150 91 Pump gas
10.50 compression
NO Vacuum pump
231/235 Solid Roller
.550 at retainers
112 LSA 108 ICL
538@6300 --- 508@5000

I know it has holes but it as honest of a test as I could do using same parts. Same dyno..

Head flow and then through manifold/carb .200-1.000.

Image
Chad,

The LCA for the street motor is way off on the LCA that the motor would actually want. My low buck 10.5/1 383's give best results on a 107 LCA with typically 2.05/1.6 valves. With a hyd roller they are cranking out 525 lbs ft and about 530 hp.
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

David Vizard wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:52 pm
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:57 pm Thought some might find this interesting. Maybe a discussion with some dyno results. This might not be a perfect A/B test, but the heads were the same and the components.

Basic engine:
4.165 x 3.48
Both LW Scat cranks
Both Mahle pistons
Both 6.000 rods
Same oil pans

Engine 1:
Whitener 1000hp 4150 VP113 fuel
13.50 compression
Vacuum pump w/11.2"
260/268 Solid Roller
.680 at retainers
106 LSA 102 ICL
677@7300 --- 545@5400

Engine 2:
Siebert 750 4150 91 Pump gas
10.50 compression
NO Vacuum pump
231/235 Solid Roller
.550 at retainers
112 LSA 108 ICL
538@6300 --- 508@5000

I know it has holes but it as honest of a test as I could do using same parts. Same dyno..

Head flow and then through manifold/carb .200-1.000.

Image
Chad,

The LCA for the street motor is way off on the LCA that the motor would actually want. My low buck 10.5/1 383's give best results on a 107 LCA with typically 2.05/1.6 valves. With a hyd roller they are cranking out 525 lbs ft and about 530 hp.
DV
I was trying to package it with the stock ECM. I couldn't get anyone to create me a tune with a lower LCA. Trust me, the first cam I ordered was not on a 112 LCA.
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by Stan Weiss »

SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:25 pm YES, totally agree. Using my Leverton spreadsheet, it was using all of the cross section and flow to make that power at 7300 rpm based on 146 cfm sq/in.

Image
Chad,
That says req. Ve 85.7. What was you BSFC numbers from the dyno tests? Did you dyno test have VE?

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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

Stan Weiss wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:29 pm
SpeierRacingHeads wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:25 pm YES, totally agree. Using my Leverton spreadsheet, it was using all of the cross section and flow to make that power at 7300 rpm based on 146 cfm sq/in.

Image
Chad,
That says req. Ve 85.7. What was you BSFC numbers from the dyno tests? Did you dyno test have VE?

Stan
I just have BSFC from engine #2
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by PRH »

Trust me, the first cam I ordered was not on a 112 LCA.
A prime example of how the real world application often influences decisions to be made that deal with variables of the build that end up higher on the important stuff list than “making the most power possible”.
Somewhat handy with a die grinder.
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Re: Race engine vs Street engine with same combo

Post by SpeierRacingHeads »

PRH wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 1:51 pm
Trust me, the first cam I ordered was not on a 112 LCA.
A prime example of how the real world application often influences decisions to be made that deal with variables of the build that end up higher on the important stuff list than “making the most power possible”.
Like I said, after I decided to go with the HP, I already had this $400 billet cam. I think it turned out well.
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