Pondering about flathead potentials
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
Maybe a 200” Falcon six with the intake milled off and a brace of Weber’s or stack injectors would’ve been a better engine for that Anglia?
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
I have a 226” Ford “H” model Flathead six I’d love to put in something like a Model A roadster. I think a basic rebuild with a wee bit more compression a couple carbs and split exhaust backed up by a modern 5 speed gearbox would be so cool.
When I think of all the cool engines that have been trashed and replaced by sbc’s it kinda makes me sick.
How many real Model A’s can actually use a 400 hp V8 on the street without being overkill anyways?
I say this because I’m lamenting yet another solid old Model A body some local guys are building is getting a 6-71 blown 400” chivvy motor. It’s going to end up so far from the “traditional” hot rod concept that they think they’re building.
I’m sure most of you disagree with me but in my opinion these 60’s and up GM engines don’t belong in pre war Ford’s.
When I think of all the cool engines that have been trashed and replaced by sbc’s it kinda makes me sick.
How many real Model A’s can actually use a 400 hp V8 on the street without being overkill anyways?
I say this because I’m lamenting yet another solid old Model A body some local guys are building is getting a 6-71 blown 400” chivvy motor. It’s going to end up so far from the “traditional” hot rod concept that they think they’re building.
I’m sure most of you disagree with me but in my opinion these 60’s and up GM engines don’t belong in pre war Ford’s.
Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
My first car was a 1930 Ford Model A Deluxe Coupe. Anything more than a 100hp flathead V8 will tie the A frame and running gear in knots. If those guys are building big horsepower, it will require complete modern running gear to set the old A-bone body on. Even then, it will be less than fun to drive; I've been in streetrods I wouldn't drive a full day if you gave it to me.MichaelThompson wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:15 pm I have a 226” Ford “H” model Flathead six I’d love to put in something like a Model A roadster. I think a basic rebuild with a wee bit more compression a couple carbs and split exhaust backed up by a modern 5 speed gearbox would be so cool.
When I think of all the cool engines that have been trashed and replaced by sbc’s it kinda makes me sick.
How many real Model A’s can actually use a 400 hp V8 on the street without being overkill anyways?
I say this because I’m lamenting yet another solid old Model A body some local guys are building is getting a 6-71 blown 400” chivvy motor. It’s going to end up so far from the “traditional” hot rod concept that they think they’re building.
I’m sure most of you disagree with me but in my opinion these 60’s and up GM engines don’t belong in pre war Ford’s.
jack vines
BTW - the late, great Clay Smith built the Ford flathead 6-cyl for inboard boat racing. Those engines were known to break the crankshafts and throw flywheels. When asked how he overcame the harmonics, he said, "Just go through that RPM so fast it never has a chance to develop."
Jack Vines
Studebaker-Packard V8 Limited
Obsolete Engineering
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Obsolete Engineering
Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
MichaelThompson wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:15 pm I have a 226” Ford “H” model Flathead six I’d love to put in something like a Model A roadster. I think a basic rebuild with a wee bit more compression a couple carbs and split exhaust backed up by a modern 5 speed gearbox would be so cool.
> If you think it is cool, it is.
When I think of all the cool engines that have been trashed and replaced by sbc’s it kinda makes me sick.
> That kind of thinking is NOT cool. There are a lot of people that can not afford to put 40K into a flathead Ford so it will keep up with a 5K SBC crate engine.
How many real Model A’s can actually use a 400 hp V8 on the street without being overkill anyways?
> Almost any of them properly set up. Overkill is a Quail radiator cap to some people.
I say this because I’m lamenting yet another solid old Model A body some local guys are building is getting a 6-71 blown 400” chivvy motor. It’s going to end up so far from the “traditional” hot rod concept that they think they’re building.
> I suppose you are standing there wringing your hands with your face all squinted up also. To those guys, their build is as traditional as anything you can come up with. Who set the standards for "traditional"? Some think it was the guy that owns one of the popular hot rodding forums. Read his bio and you will be ROFLYAO..
I’m sure most of you disagree with me but in my opinion these 60’s and up GM engines don’t belong in pre war Ford’s.
> You are entitled to your opinion and "we" are entitled to our opinions of your interpretation of the facts.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
Pete you’re getting me wrong I think. There are plenty of sbc powered early Ford’s in particular.
I stated that there have been a lot of good early engines that have been trashed in the pursuit of the sbc “formula” many people think they need for a better Ford.
It’s funny you mention this though because just the other day I made a deal to purchase a bunch of perfectly good early Ford components that have been ripped out of a ‘37 Ford to make way for the 350/350 10 bolt Camaro driveline.
The rear axle is completely rebuilt with a 3.25:1 gear. The car changed hands and the new owner apparently wants an early Ford car in silhouette only.
I don’t know how one would do it but I suppose I’d like to have one of those $40,000 Flatheads you speak of. I guess the easiest way to get into that price range would be a blown ARDUN and even then I’m thinking 30K.
My homegrown Flattys come in about 5 grand.
You misunderstand me Pete and that hurts my feelings a little because I have enthusiastically read much of what you have written both here and on other forums. I can’t stop those guys from destroying that clean little Model A but I certainly don’t have to like it.
Listen you know and I know about 80% of the early Ford fleet have gotten the Chevy treatment. I get it but it’s sacrilege to me being a Ford guy that even fed his family working with Ford products. Second generation actually.
One thing is for sure though, almost everything you hear about Ford engines is bunk. When a guy walks on the wild side and actually considers putting a real Ford engine in his Ford car he is very likely choosing an engine who’s offshoot conquered the Indy 500. The sbc never did.
I stated that there have been a lot of good early engines that have been trashed in the pursuit of the sbc “formula” many people think they need for a better Ford.
It’s funny you mention this though because just the other day I made a deal to purchase a bunch of perfectly good early Ford components that have been ripped out of a ‘37 Ford to make way for the 350/350 10 bolt Camaro driveline.
The rear axle is completely rebuilt with a 3.25:1 gear. The car changed hands and the new owner apparently wants an early Ford car in silhouette only.
I don’t know how one would do it but I suppose I’d like to have one of those $40,000 Flatheads you speak of. I guess the easiest way to get into that price range would be a blown ARDUN and even then I’m thinking 30K.
My homegrown Flattys come in about 5 grand.
You misunderstand me Pete and that hurts my feelings a little because I have enthusiastically read much of what you have written both here and on other forums. I can’t stop those guys from destroying that clean little Model A but I certainly don’t have to like it.
Listen you know and I know about 80% of the early Ford fleet have gotten the Chevy treatment. I get it but it’s sacrilege to me being a Ford guy that even fed his family working with Ford products. Second generation actually.
One thing is for sure though, almost everything you hear about Ford engines is bunk. When a guy walks on the wild side and actually considers putting a real Ford engine in his Ford car he is very likely choosing an engine who’s offshoot conquered the Indy 500. The sbc never did.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
Yes Jack I’m guessing a 400” Chevy with a 6-71 is probably 500 hp. Now I’m a big fan of horsepower but if you’re building a car to enjoy going in more than just a straight line I think that requires balance.PackardV8 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:50 pmMy first car was a 1930 Ford Model A Deluxe Coupe. Anything more than a 100hp flathead V8 will tie the A frame and running gear in knots. If those guys are building big horsepower, it will require complete modern running gear to set the old A-bone body on. Even then, it will be less than fun to drive; I've been in streetrods I wouldn't drive a full day if you gave it to me.MichaelThompson wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:15 pm I have a 226” Ford “H” model Flathead six I’d love to put in something like a Model A roadster. I think a basic rebuild with a wee bit more compression a couple carbs and split exhaust backed up by a modern 5 speed gearbox would be so cool.
When I think of all the cool engines that have been trashed and replaced by sbc’s it kinda makes me sick.
How many real Model A’s can actually use a 400 hp V8 on the street without being overkill anyways?
I say this because I’m lamenting yet another solid old Model A body some local guys are building is getting a 6-71 blown 400” chivvy motor. It’s going to end up so far from the “traditional” hot rod concept that they think they’re building.
I’m sure most of you disagree with me but in my opinion these 60’s and up GM engines don’t belong in pre war Ford’s.
jack vines
BTW - the late, great Clay Smith built the Ford flathead 6-cyl for inboard boat racing. Those engines were known to break the crankshafts and throw flywheels. When asked how he overcame the harmonics, he said, "Just go through that RPM so fast it never has a chance to develop."
To flesh out my point I’d like to draw attention to Carrol Shelby himself. Shelby never wanted to build a 427 Cobra. In fact the 289 Cobra won most of the races. Ford did not have a small block engine in the 350” range to fend off the 327 Vettes.
Turns out they didn’t need it because the combination of the super light 289 in the super light Cobra was very capable of putting the Corvettes on the trailer.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
Henry Ford’s X8 submitted for your consideration. For this discussion I’d like you to take a look at the intake ports and specifically their angle of entry into the combustion chamber. Could this shape be fabricated into a Ford Flathead V8. Certainly it could but of course “how” is always the question.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
I have admired how the designers of the latest pushrod V8 engines have used the space between valve heads by filling that space with the intake manifold to make the engine as compact as possible. Unfortunately similar trick is practically impossible with a flathead V8. The heads are already low and there is not much space available between them. Perhaps, if the intake manifolds could be built inside the block, immediately above the camshaft, then it could be possible to make a compact flathead V8.MichaelThompson wrote: ↑Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:13 am
Just a little follow up on the Ford Flathead thing. If you think about a really stout side valve engine one cannot forget the 308” Hudson six cylinder.
Of course the Hudson has large bores and plenty of displacement for a six cylinder, but let’s not forget that the Hudson like any inline side valve has the advantage of a better point of entry for the intake port being lower on the block.
On the V8 engine you have the intake port in almost a fishhook shape really challenging the flow to reverse direction unnecessarily and abruptly.
A neat experiment would be to fill the intake ports and reshape them so they are fairly straight and at a 45 to the backside of the intake valve.
This would put the intake port in the valley area. A log style plenum in the valley that could tie all the ports together with either a carb in the center or even EFI would really shorten and straighten the intake path.
In case of a flathead engine, if cylinders are in straight, slanted or flat (180° V12 for example) formation, and a 135° V16 is almost as good as flat, then arranging reasonable manifold shapes is easier compared to 90° V8.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
I've done enough work with inline six flatheads where intake design can be whatever to have the opinion nothing one can do to the flathead intake manifold is ever going to overcome that pinch point in the 180-degree-turn transfer area between the intake valve and the cylinder bore.Nikolas Ojala wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:06 pm In case of a flathead engine, if cylinders are in straight, slanted or flat (180° V12 for example) formation, and a 135° V16 is almost as good as flat, then arranging reasonable manifold shapes is easier compared to 90° V8.
Jack Vines
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
I was thinking about a solution in which large part of the cavity between cylinder banks would be converted into an intake plenum. The rest of the volume of that plenum would be inside a sealed cover between the cylinder heads. Much of the original cast intake runners would be milled short and then new intake runners would be installed. An opening for an intake pipe would be cut above the camshaft sprocket. The purpose would be to avoid building a tower on top of the block. Then the cylinder heads would define the total height of the engine.Nikolas Ojala wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:06 pm
Perhaps, if the intake manifolds could be built inside the block, immediately above the camshaft, then it could be possible to make a compact flathead V8.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
Well I wish I knew how to draw you a picture on this thing but the time is drawing near for me to build my own “dream engine” based on a Flathead Ford.
My goal is 1 horsepower per cubic inch N/A.
One of the things that I want to try is to raise the intake seat and put in a longer intake valve to effectively move the top center line of the valve (and thus bring the edge closer to the cylinder) to reduce the transfer area without losing flow.
I envision a great deal of the duration of the valve lift being way up almost hiding the valve head away up against the cylinder head.
Look at it sometime. Rotate and engine and watch the valves go up and down with the heads off. The valves kind of stay right in the way in that the long port side which is where flow collects on an upside down port. They actually pinch that area where the flow is.
If you look at a Flathead valve as it’s opening it actually masks flow as a function of it being located at a greater angle than the cylinder bank.
My goal is 1 horsepower per cubic inch N/A.
One of the things that I want to try is to raise the intake seat and put in a longer intake valve to effectively move the top center line of the valve (and thus bring the edge closer to the cylinder) to reduce the transfer area without losing flow.
I envision a great deal of the duration of the valve lift being way up almost hiding the valve head away up against the cylinder head.
Look at it sometime. Rotate and engine and watch the valves go up and down with the heads off. The valves kind of stay right in the way in that the long port side which is where flow collects on an upside down port. They actually pinch that area where the flow is.
If you look at a Flathead valve as it’s opening it actually masks flow as a function of it being located at a greater angle than the cylinder bank.
Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
Is this Henryfloored from Yellow Bullet?MichaelThompson wrote: ↑Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:15 pm I have a 226” Ford “H” model Flathead six I’d love to put in something like a Model A roadster. I think a basic rebuild with a wee bit more compression a couple carbs and split exhaust backed up by a modern 5 speed gearbox would be so cool.
When I think of all the cool engines that have been trashed and replaced by sbc’s it kinda makes me sick.
How many real Model A’s can actually use a 400 hp V8 on the street without being overkill anyways?
I say this because I’m lamenting yet another solid old Model A body some local guys are building is getting a 6-71 blown 400” chivvy motor. It’s going to end up so far from the “traditional” hot rod concept that they think they’re building.
I’m sure most of you disagree with me but in my opinion these 60’s and up GM engines don’t belong in pre war Ford’s.
Re: Pondering about flathead potentials
That was done many times in the 50's and driven on the street but remember, we had 106 street gas then.MichaelThompson wrote: ↑Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:17 pm Well I wish I knew how to draw you a picture on this thing but the time is drawing near for me to build my own “dream engine” based on a Flathead Ford.
My goal is 1 horsepower per cubic inch N/A.
It is easy to do with av gas or alcohol for racing. It can even be done with over the counter parts and no block welding.