Pondering about flathead potentials

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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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mdc689 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:25 am Is this Henryfloored from Yellow Bullet

yep thats him
I thought so, lol.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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It’s not all that important who I am. My real name is Michael Thompson for the record.

I’m curious if you guys have any thoughts on the matter of improving the pinch point on the Flathead Ford.

If the valves were at a 45 or greater to the cylinder centerline a side valve engine could have breathing that approaches what an OHV can do.

Between the cylinder head acting as almost a flow dam and the area on the deck between the valves and cylinder edge you have some big challenges to improve that.

I’m sure probably everything under the sun has been tried. I’d like to try it myself.

Imagine if the Ford could’ve had the expensive premium valve gear that the Lycoming/Cord V8 had. These things would give 50’s OHV V8’s a run for their money.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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MichaelThompson wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:45 pm
If the valves were at a 45 or greater to the cylinder centerline a side valve engine could have breathing that approaches what an OHV can do.

Between the cylinder head acting as almost a flow dam and the area on the deck between the valves and cylinder edge you have some big challenges to improve that.

I’m sure probably everything under the sun has been tried. I’d like to try it myself.

Imagine if the Ford could’ve had the expensive premium valve gear that the Lycoming/Cord V8 had. These things would give 50’s OHV V8’s a run for their money.
It may be practically impossible to modify a Ford V8 that way.

An inline six or slanted six would have space for a valvetrain. There would be many possibilities for a valvetrain. Twelve valves in a single row. I have admired the Mercedes-Benz 500I (also known as Ilmor 265E) pushrod valvetrain but I guess that much of complexity would not be needed. Think about a stretched SOHC valvetrain with really long rocker arms. The crankshaft and camshaft would be connected with two sprockets. All main moving parts would be connected to the block. The head, manifolds and valvetrain cover would be stationary objects. I guess this could be the way to combine improved gas flow with compactness.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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MichaelThompson wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:45 pm If the valves were at a 45 or greater to the cylinder centerline a side valve engine could have breathing that approaches what an OHV can do.

Imagine if the Ford could’ve had the expensive premium valve gear that the Lycoming/Cord V8 had. These things would give 50’s OHV V8’s a run for their money.
Not really. If one looks at it, that's an OHV design, just a different valve angle. Problem is, it retains too much of the flathead restriction of the flow having to make an acute angle turn down into the cylinder. I've built the V12 version of that engine and it interesting, but not an alternative to the better OHC possibilities. That no other designers picked up on it tells us all we need to know about how well it works and how it could be improved.

FWIW, the "hot vee" design would allow for easy turbocharger plumbing and the heads would be easy to plumb for DI; an interesting project which will most likely never happen.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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PackardV8 wrote: Mon Mar 21, 2022 2:52 pm
the heads would be easy to plumb for DI
I thought that the shape of the combustion chambers crave for a better ignition such as turbulent jet ignition.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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Pete1 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:38 pm
MichaelThompson wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:17 pm Well I wish I knew how to draw you a picture on this thing but the time is drawing near for me to build my own “dream engine” based on a Flathead Ford.

My goal is 1 horsepower per cubic inch N/A.
That was done many times in the 50's and driven on the street but remember, we had 106 street gas then.
It is easy to do with av gas or alcohol for racing. It can even be done with over the counter parts and no block welding.
Interesting, what exactly did you do to get that HP?
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by PackardV8 »

Pete1 wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:38 pm
MichaelThompson wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:17 pm

My goal is 1 horsepower per cubic inch N/A.
That was done many times in the 50's and driven on the street but remember, we had 106 street gas then.
It is easy to do with av gas or alcohol for racing. It can even be done with over the counter parts and no block welding.
Wish the guys I raced with back in the '50s knew that magic. We never, ever saw a street-drivable NA flathead Ford V8 make one horsepower per cubic inch.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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21st century Flat Heads.
Some still saw potential.
I don't think Gas Gas went ahead with their Trials motor.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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Then again.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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Trials bikes are not about maximum power from a given displacement....light weight and a compact engine are more important , a side valve fits nicely...
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Nikolas Ojala »

It would be interesting to see a flathead engine with plasma ignition.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by PackardV8 »

Truckedup wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 8:46 am Trials bikes are not about maximum power from a given displacement....light weight and a compact engine are more important , a side valve fits nicely...
And equally important for a trials bike, the sidevalve has a lower CG than an OHC.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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Ignorance leads to confidence more often than knowledge does.
Nah, I'm not leaving myself out of the ignorant brigade....at times.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJWtjChXbOw

Nice documentary.

What did they do?
  • 3:10 Cut off the top of the engine and totally rework both intake and exhaust ports.
  • 3:17 Intake ports became exhaust ports and vice versa. Exhaust exit top of the block through custom headers.
  • 3:44 Add plates that rerouted the ports. There was some oil leaking issues, blah blah. Leading to new builds.
  • 5:20 Introduce build three.
  • 8:03 To maximize available lobe lift (of valves) using clamp shells that hold the cam bearings in place on the camshaft instead of driving the bearings into the block. The lobes can be much larger this way.
  • 10:00 Crankshaft made of billet steel. Stroke 4.375"
  • 11:00 Modern seals and bearings for the crank.
  • 11:39 Dry sump system.
  • 12:12 Custom billet main caps.
  • 13:16 Extra support for the center main cap.
  • 13:40 Exhaust ports.
  • 14:24 Aluminium front plate and timing belt.
  • 15:39 Flat top pistons.
  • 16:06 Connecting rods.
  • 16:42 Piston rings.
  • 17:40 The bottoms of the bores had to be notched.
  • 18:18 Dry sump oil pan.
  • 20:12 Solid roller lifters.
  • 21:06 Key ways in the lifter bores.
  • 22:05 Valve guides have been pressed into the ports in the block.
  • 22:24 Copper-beryllium valve seats.
  • 23:42 Valve springs.
  • 24:17 A valve spring compressor tool made of a carpenter's slide clamp.
  • 25:50 Valve lift is great.
  • 27:29 Design for combustion chambers ... is a secret.
  • 28:36 Compression ratio is 9.2:1 .
  • 28:44 Spark plug holes.
  • 29:34 External oil pump.
  • 29:59 Electric water pump brings coolant just beneath the middle exhaust port.
  • 30:25 Intake and plenum with long intake ports.
  • 32:05 Best carburetor combination.
  • 32:18 Start the engine and break-in.
  • 33:26 Squirters.
  • 34:50 Results.
  • 36:28 Ron Cooper's 1939 Ford.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Nikolas Ojala »

By the way, did you notice that the V8 had conventional looking carburetors, spark plugs, etc. No variable valve timing, turbulent jet ignition, or anything like that. That originally 95 hp flathead engine produced almost 250 hp and is still pretty much an example of conventional engine technology.

Although I understand the reasons why a timing belt was chosen, I still like the sprocket drive. A worn chain or belt could snap but sprockets wear slowly.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
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