Pondering about flathead potentials

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MichaelThompson
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by MichaelThompson »

Still pondering Flatheads. This is where I’d like to move the intake valves.

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Pete1
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Pete1 »

Yes, possible with a lot of welding. Very likely would produce an increase in hp, BUT, there is very little water in that area, AND,Ford moved the valves away from the cylinder in 46 because they were having a LOT of problems with blocks cracking between the valves and cylinder.

That mod would very likely shorten the block life, maybe too much. Might work fine for drag racing.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by MichaelThompson »

Pete I think the only sure way to do this would be to bore the intake valve pocket and screw in a giant cast iron plug and start over.

At that point you could move the valve seat and carve a port with a better angle of entry to the cylinder. Meaning gradual short and long short side radii.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by PackardV8 »

Ford moved the valves away from the cylinder in 46 because they were having a LOT of problems with blocks cracking between the valves and cylinder.
We've been told alcohol fuel solves many heat/coolant problems.

But then, we're back to the inherent flathead intake breathing limitations. Alcohol requires much greater volume. Could enough be ingested to make more power while keeping the old arn cool? Maybe direct injection, so the intake tract only has to flow the air.
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MichaelThompson
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by MichaelThompson »

Yes but I’m only suggesting that the intake valve be relocated right to the very edge of the bore. So close that even a piston notch may be required.

First the valve pocket in the head will be filled where the valve used to open increasing compression.

Second that air charge will spill out from behind that angled valve as opposed to having to be bounced off the cylinder head and then down.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Sparksalot »

Why not build a flow test model to find out if you're on to something? You only need something adequate for flow bench testing so many materials able to be quickly changed in configuration would be suitable. Some of them are plastic, wood, curable putty, plaster of paris, kids plastic clay. Go for it.

That's how advances were made before CFD was available to those with supercomputers. I worked at NASA Ames where CFD is dominate now. In my era there wind tunnels were front and center and experimentation was underway with what I describe above.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Pete1 »

PackardV8 wrote: Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:42 am
Ford moved the valves away from the cylinder in 46 because they were having a LOT of problems with blocks cracking between the valves and cylinder.
We've been told alcohol fuel solves many heat/coolant problems.

But then, we're back to the inherent flathead intake breathing limitations. Alcohol requires much greater volume. Could enough be ingested to make more power while keeping the old arn cool? Maybe direct injection, so the intake tract only has to flow the air.
Assuming an all out engine with plenty of compression, alcohol will usually give about 10% more hp with no other changes.
I have never noticed any change in operating temperature from that change alone. In the early 50's I use to drive to the drag strip on gas, change the carb tops and race all day on 50% nitro, change the tops and drive home on gas.
Most cooling problems are caused by spending thousands of dollars on an engine and trying to cool it with a 20 dollar cooling system.
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Nikolas Ojala »

Pete1 wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:33 pm
Assuming an all out engine with plenty of compression, alcohol will usually give about 10% more hp with no other changes.
I have never noticed any change in operating temperature from that change alone. In the early 50's I use to drive to the drag strip on gas, change the carb tops and race all day on 50% nitro, change the tops and drive home on gas.
With 14:1 compression ratio, how did you avoid knocking when you drove on gas?
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by pdq67 »

Thanks Nikolas for the Lycoming name...

Just bringing this over here is all.

From the above thread here, -- "Evolving the Side valve flat head design idea"...

"The cam is made so that the ports are in the head and the valves seats in the seats in the head!!

There will however be valve stems in the way in the combustion chamber when the valves operate.

I personally like the I want to say the, Lycoming, flat head V-8 that had the valves in the block horizontally located. The cam in the engine v operated the valves by using vertical rockers

I am pretty sure the H.A.M.B. has a really long thread on it with a section view picture of this engine AND I am right in the middle of the thread.

pdq67
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Nikolas Ojala »

I think that the best thing for internal combustion engines would be RCCI (Reactivity Controlled Compression Ignition), but I am not sure would it be possible to implement in side-valve engines of any geometry. At least it seems extremely tricky to achieve in an L-head.

The next best thing could be throttleless control by variable valve timing, using either LIVC or EIVC principle. Implementation may be possible either with Danny Russell Williams' Helical camshaft or Pattakon DVVA by Manolis Pattakos. I suppose that the Helical camshaft could be used at least in a two cylinder boxer flathead, and Pattakos DVVA would be more flexible system, although there seems to be more moving parts in that. Perhaps FIAT MultiAir or some other pretty much alike could be used too.

There is at least one important thing that could be tried anyway without touching valve train or other parts of the combustion process, and the thing is an improved ignition. I suppose that one worth trying could be Transient plasma ignition by Singleton, Pendleton and Gundersen.

A combination of improved ignition and throttleless EIVC/LIVC would do good, but would that be good enough, I don't know.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
Nikolas Ojala
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Nikolas Ojala »

Just think about jet ignition: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20120103302A1/en

If that ignition system was attached to a flathead, how much more room there would be for the whole ignition system, compared to overhead valves. In the drawings of the patent application, all essential components of the invention form a tall and narrow tower on the combustion chamber. In case of a flathead one could design the pre-chamber so that the spark plug and injector would be more like horizontal, for example.

https://f1i.com/magazine/76167-tji-ante ... wer.html/2

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/0 ... mahle.html
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by pdq67 »

Nik,

Lets go one or two better and let the injector/ignition device also contain the intake air injection as well as the exhaust air expulsion and do away with valves all together!

Blow the incoming air through its injector portion and then let the piston push the spent charge out. Probably would have to use max air system injection lifts to get everything in and out of the chamber, but whatever!

pdq67
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Nikolas Ojala »

pdq67 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:36 pm
"The cam is made so that the ports are in the head and the valves seats in the seats in the head!!
So the camshaft would be in block as well as rockers, and the valve seats and ports would be in the heads. The valve stems would be approximately horizontal. No pushrods at all. I hope I got it right. That would be a different kind of OHV engine, I guess. Usually OHV includes pushrods.
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
– Colin Chapman, design engineer, inventor, and founder of Lotus Cars
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by pdq67 »

No, picture a flathead V-8 with longer valves that seated in the heads and also had the ports in the heads!

No block ports at all, but the cam would still be in the standard position.

pdq67
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Re: Pondering about flathead potentials

Post by Nefario »

A brand new flathead! They traded maximum power potential for small footprint, simplicity, and reliability.

https://www.d-motor.eu/
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