Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

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emsvitil
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by emsvitil »

There is some logic in having the most forward cylinder as #1.

But do you then go down one bank then the other, or alternate left-right as you make your way to the rearmost cylinder
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by frnkeore »

If we revert back to clock motion, it is inline.

For Ford, it may have come from the fact, that the V8 replaced the inline 4 and because they added another bank of cylinders, they continued on with that second bank.
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by Circlotron »

emsvitil wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:17 am There is some logic in having the most forward cylinder as #1.
What about this Renault 4CV engine?
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by modok »

IF the cylinders are numbered as left and right "banks"
the right bank is ALWAYS the primary bank.

I can find no examples of the opposite, so far.
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by Kenova »

modok wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:23 am

But it would be easier for me to remember, if there was any logical reason or interesting story behind it.
What do you think?
Maybe Henry was dyslexic.

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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by frnkeore »

I did a little digging on this subject and it turns out that we can blame the Cadillac division of GM in 1914, for numbering the first American V8 cylinders and they were numbered, inline as 2 attached 4 cylinders, 1-4 left bank and right bank.
Cadillac’s firing order was 1L-2R-3L-1R-4L-3R-2L-4R as viewed from the rear and each bank was numbered one through four from the front.
The first known working V8 engine was designed by Frenchman Leon Levavasseur produced by the his company Antoinette in 1904 for use in aircraft, and the 1914–1935 Cadillac L-Head engine is considered the first automotive V8 engine to be produced in significant quantities.
I wasn't able to find the cylinder numbering or firing order of the Antoinette engine though.
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by modok »

COOL
If they started the firing order with 1left, then that IS opposite of ford. #-o
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by lefty o »

Truckedup wrote: Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:47 pm cylinder numbering? what's the firing order on a 2 cylinder engine?
you would sure hope its 1,2 , or at the very least 2,1. :lol: on a one cylinder, it had better be 1,1,1,1,1,1,.................. or you have issues. 8)
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by frnkeore »

modok wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 6:06 am COOL
If they started the firing order with 1left, then that IS opposite of ford. #-o
It also, just could be a matter of whether the person that designed it was right or left handed, right.

If you look at it logically, a cyl can't fire, unless it starts at or near BDC. If the engine turns CW and the V is upright, the first cyl that has compression, to fire, will be the one on the right, when viewed form the rear of the engine. A CCW engine would first build compression on the left side.
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by Momus »

modok wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:23 am I know it is completely arbitrary and does not actually matter.

But it would be easier for me to remember, if there was any logical reason or interesting story behind it.

I am aware of other engines probably predating the ford V8 that had the front right cylinder #1, for no apparent reason.
It must have been a prior convention to do so.....
I imagined a story of it being the engineers in the the 30's forever reminding us that cars should be right hand drive. :lol:

But even if there WAS some prior convention, why would FORD have gone with it?
The more I learn about the life and times of Henry Ford, I think it's more likely he would have done the opposite of convention just out of spite.

You read from left to right, & top to bottom. Even on a blueprint it looks backwards to most people.

What do you think?
GMH/Holden's 1960's scratch designed small block V8 for the Australian market- RH drive- has the offset forwards to give more room for the steering gear.
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by modok »

I JUST googled it....
Henry ford was, in fact, left handed. :shock:
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by Schurkey »

learner1 wrote: Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:39 pm Or International using #8 cylinder for ignition timing
It's been a bunch of years since I've timed an Intercoursable. I'm thinking that the torsional damper is unbalanced, having a wide section and a narrow section to allow for the unbalance. The narrow section corresponds to the #1 TDC on the timing pointer. Therefore, they time off of #8 so the timing mark on the damper can be wider and easier to see.
emsvitil wrote: Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:17 am There is some logic in having the most forward cylinder as #1.

But do you then go down one bank then the other, or alternate left-right as you make your way to the rearmost cylinder
If you number odds on one bank, evens on the other bank, starting with #1 as the furthest forward, numbering the rods from front to rear is easy--1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.. To me, this is the logical way to do things. Put another way--if you number the rods in order from front to rear, you wind up with odds on one bank and evens on the other, with #1 on the forward bank.

If you're Pontiac, where odds are on one side, evens on the other, but #1 isn't the furthest forward, numbering the rods front-to-rear is more complex: 2, 1, 4, 3, 6, 5, 8, 7.

If you're Ford, where 1--4 is on one bank, and 5--8 on the other, with #1 furthest forward, again numbering the rods front-to-rear is goofy: 1, 5, 2, 6, 3, 7, 4, 8.
frnkeore wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:50 am If you look at it logically, a cyl can't fire, unless it starts at or near BDC. If the engine turns CW and the V is upright, the first cyl that has compression, to fire, will be the one on the right, when viewed form the rear of the engine. A CCW engine would first build compression on the left side.
I can't wrap my head around that.

The "first cylinder to fire" entirely depends on the starting position of the crankshaft. ANY of the cylinders could be the "first to fire" if the starting position of the crank is adjusted to suit.

Am I wrong?
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by frnkeore »

My logic says yes.

Firing starts with compression and compression, starts from BDC. #1 has to have compression to fire, right? The right side is the first inline to do that, with CW rotation.
The "first cylinder to fire" entirely depends on the starting position of the crankshaft. ANY of the cylinders could be the "first to fire" if the starting position of the crank is adjusted to suit.
I suppose you could say that, you could even re-number and re-time the engine, every time it is shut off and re-started, depending on crank position or, you could call #1 where the crank position is, when you put your last piston in and start the timing from there.

#1, is #1, where would you put it on a radial engine?
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by emsvitil »

frnkeore wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:48 am

#1, is #1, where would you put it on a radial engine?
The cylinder with the master connecting rod.

Then each cylinder number increases in the direction of rotation

For multi-row radials, use the row closest to the propeller
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Re: Why is the #1 cylinder front right? ford v8

Post by frnkeore »

But, Ed, I don't know if that goes along with Schurkey's logic?

I suppose it could be the rod, leading the master, because it gets there first? Or, the rod trailing the master, as it's the one that the master rod brings up first?

You could say the Master Rod is the one that "orders" the others, to do there thing :^o

In V8's, I'm guessing that whether your a Ford or GM guy, is what makes #1, #1 and makes one firing order normal and the other wrong :?
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