Temperature issues

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TheGreatPumpkin
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Re: Temperature issues

Post by TheGreatPumpkin »

F-BIRD'88 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 4:24 pm With the non factory fog lights at the bumper you've definatly turned it into a "Bottom Breather" like a Firebird.

Needs a big chin spoiler under the rad support.
Move the fog lights apart or back or eliminate.
Be sure that there is a steel wire coil spring in the bottom radiator hose. As when hot can collapse.

Combined with the fan shroud a lit of air is not passing thru the radiator at speed.
Understood. I'm going to try to keep the lights but I'll definitely take all suggestions. Has the coil spring already
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Re: Temperature issues

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Hypothetically, could you cut slats/openings in the hood in front (or behind?) of the radiator to improve airflow through it and lessen the underhood backpressure?
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Re: Temperature issues

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TheGreatPumpkin wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:12 pm Hypothetically, could you cut slats/openings in the hood in front (or behind?) of the radiator to improve airflow through it and lessen the underhood backpressure?
A proper chin spoiler creates a strong relative negative pressure under the car at speed.. Thats how the underhood air flow gets out.
Wether the chin spoiler is located under the rad support or under the bumper (thus forward of the rad support) depends where you want to direct the high pressure air to go . (Like up thru the rad)

First take the fog lights off and road test.
All the high perf Torinos (Eg Cobra SCJ cars) had a big chin spoiler. (and no fog lights blocking rad air flow path.)
You need the cooling flow more than those fog lights located there.

Also need to rethink that electric fan shroud.

All the unibody cars with shock towers and full fender aprons have no room for underhood air to exit at hiway speed. (Unless you use a chin spoiler to create a negative under car pressure)
The fog lights are in the way of rad airflow on that car.
Small Rad grill area made smaller by the fog lights location. Look at the rad grill opening on the later 73 Torino. Its huge.
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Re: Temperature issues

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

When you DO create a strong (relative) negative air pressure zone under hood and under car, you then also need to DUCT cool (relative ) high pressure (ambient or higher) from a high pressure zone to the air cleaner (carb box) High pressure zones are in front of the bumper, (even better with a chin spoiler). , at the cowl/windshield base area (cowl induction). or above the hood/above the hood boundry layer (Forward facing hood scoop)

Letting the carb breathe underhood negative (relative) air pressure reduces engine power at speed.
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Re: Temperature issues

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

Like this car.
https://images.app.goo.gl/M6dinT4H1xXZkPeZ6

Put the OEM mechanical (clutch) fan and shroud back on the car.
https://images.app.goo.gl/uCss1syj6eEiFHqp7
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Re: Temperature issues

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F-BIRD'88 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:26 pm
TheGreatPumpkin wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 11:12 pm Hypothetically, could you cut slats/openings in the hood in front (or behind?) of the radiator to improve airflow through it and lessen the underhood backpressure?
A proper chin spoiler creates a strong relative negative pressure under the car at speed.. Thats how the underhood air flow gets out.
Wether the chin spoiler is located under the rad support or under the bumper (thus forward of the rad support) depends where you want to direct the high pressure air to go . (Like up thru the rad)

First take the fog lights off and road test.
All the high perf Torinos (Eg Cobra SCJ cars) had a big chin spoiler. (and no fog lights blocking rad air flow path.)
You need the cooling flow more than those fog lights located there.

Also need to rethink that electric fan shroud.

All the unibody cars with shock towers and full fender aprons have no room for underhood air to exit at hiway speed. (Unless you use a chin spoiler to create a negative under car pressure)
The fog lights are in the way of rad airflow on that car.
Small Rad grill area made smaller by the fog lights location. Look at the rad grill opening on the later 73 Torino. Its huge.
Yeah the fog lights are just for looks, really. I have the spoiler, I'll try it out. Very very little room for a mech fan but i do have the short fan mount in a box somewhere from when it was a clutch setup. I don't wanna have to change the semi-serpentine stuff though bc it runs the power steering (CVF pulleys are really nice)
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Re: Temperature issues

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

Time to make some hard choices between bling and a well engineered functional OEM engine cooling system.
None of which gets seen when driving the car.
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Re: Temperature issues

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TheGreatPumpkin wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:10 pm Hi all. Car is running hot on the highway. Example: 3000rpm, 70mph, 14:1 AFR, hits 230 according to my Autometer gauge. Car is a BBF 466, 9:1, mild, headers, Ford Motorsports water pump, Griffin rad, 180 tstat, fan switch is 200 on, 185 off.
Just got back from a drive, haven't checked coolant level. My timing is 15 initial, 10 vac @ 15inhg, 21 mechanical by 3300, 36 total, 46 maximum possible at cruise but at 3000rpm it's less than that. What's going on here? Too rich? Too much timing or too little? I'm leaning towards "too rich" but I'm kinda stumped.
Timing, definitely not too much, too little? possibly.

Autometer capillary or electronic ? Electronic, make sure the sender matches the gauge.

Basic shit I've f'd up...fans blowing the right way ?

Cooling system bypass, ensure 80 odd percent of the flow is actually going through the radiator and not getting bypassed.

Ignoring scary temps being read, is it actually doing anything stupid ? i.e...pinging when temp goes up ? Puking when temp goes up or when you stop ?

Symptoms are as important as numbers observed.
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Re: Temperature issues

Post by jsgarage »

Walter said, 'check the water pump pulley ratio' and that's good advice. 351-C Panteras are known to have about 20% undersized radiators due to their low noses, and they run 1:1 pullies from the factory. This all works fine until you start adding 25% or more extra power. FWIW, I had an uncomfortably (I thought) high speed cruise water temp at 230 F. I literally tweeked/changed the entire cooling system without effect- until I installed a modern aluminum radiator with 1.25" tubes. BINGO- instant 20 degrees F temp drop when thoroughly warmed up. As they say, 'Old too soon, smart too late, again...'.

Old-school small tube brass rads can be water-flow-restrictive, or the fin count is too high and blocks high-speed ram air flow, as NASCAR found at Talledega and Texas World Speedway. FWIW, my personal 'high-water-temp' problem only shows up at 150 mph and above for long periods, so they're kind of self-inflicted here in rural Nevada. YMMV.
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Re: Temperature issues

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Tom68 wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:26 am
TheGreatPumpkin wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:10 pm Hi all. Car is running hot on the highway. Example: 3000rpm, 70mph, 14:1 AFR, hits 230 according to my Autometer gauge. Car is a BBF 466, 9:1, mild, headers, Ford Motorsports water pump, Griffin rad, 180 tstat, fan switch is 200 on, 185 off.
Just got back from a drive, haven't checked coolant level. My timing is 15 initial, 10 vac @ 15inhg, 21 mechanical by 3300, 36 total, 46 maximum possible at cruise but at 3000rpm it's less than that. What's going on here? Too rich? Too much timing or too little? I'm leaning towards "too rich" but I'm kinda stumped.
Timing, definitely not too much, too little? possibly.

Autometer capillary or electronic ? Electronic, make sure the sender matches the gauge.

Basic shit I've f'd up...fans blowing the right way ?

Cooling system bypass, ensure 80 odd percent of the flow is actually going through the radiator and not getting bypassed.

Ignoring scary temps being read, is it actually doing anything stupid ? i.e...pinging when temp goes up ? Puking when temp goes up or when you stop ?

Symptoms are as important as numbers observed.
Yeah i wondered about that too, no puking, no pinging, just a little "hot engine" smell and you can tell the stuff underhood is a little hot than you'd expect. Electronic gauge and sender, brand new. Pretty sure it's just airflow at highway speed. It's not running away either, just creeps up to 225 or so and sits there

I'm in VT for a wedding so I'll report back when I make the changes
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Re: Temperature issues

Post by 54chevkiwi »

What's wrong with a factory mechanical (clutch) fan and shroud..?
I see a lot of people fix what isn't broken with electric fans and then chase cooling problems till sun down, (especially when they stall them in pusher fashion)
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Re: Temperature issues

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I'm not running pushers!

The mech fan takes up a lot of space, I wanted to run a bigger aluminum rad, better belts/pulleys for the power steering and everything else, etc. It just wasn't in the cards and I'm not going back, I'd have to change too much
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Re: Temperature issues

Post by Tom68 »

54chevkiwi wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 4:58 am What's wrong with a factory mechanical (clutch) fan and shroud..?
I see a lot of people fix what isn't broken with electric fans and then chase cooling problems till sun down, (especially when they stall them in pusher fashion)
I've only personally seen electric fans fail to effectively replace a factory fan once, was my Dads loaded 345 Inter' Tipper back in about 1975, no problems until we had to come up the Pentland Hills in Victoria.
Ignorance leads to confidence more often than knowledge does.
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Re: Temperature issues

Post by F-BIRD'88 »

Much like a airplane prop the electric fan blades are at the wrong blade pitch when at hiway speed VS at idle.
Thus they restrict flow at hiway speed (Not to mention that elec fan shroud)
Being that the elec fan blades create a flow restriction and a rotational speed dyno effect at speed the car just won't get enough airflow. (The electric fans in shroud WILL NOT free-wheel at hiway speeds ,they become lil electric dynos) At least on a mechanical fan with clutch any dyno effect is returned to the engine crankshaft (in a minor way)
Don't be hard headed about whats going to work VS what seems "cool".
If the electric fans had variable pitch, blade feathering to adjust "blade angle of attack" (like an airplane prop) it might be a different story But, they don't.

What other OEM radiator air flow directing
ducting panels or seals are missing from that Torino front end?
Last edited by F-BIRD'88 on Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Temperature issues

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F-BIRD'88 wrote: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:35 pm Much like a airplane prop the electric fan blades are at the wrong blade pitch when at hiway speed VS at idle.
Thus they restrict flow at hiway speed (Not to mention that elec fan shroud)
Being that the elec fan blades create a flow restriction and a rotational speed dyno effect at speed the car just won't get enough airflow. At least on a mechanical fan with clutch any dyno effect is returned to the engine crankshaft (in a minor way)
Don't be hard headed about whats going to work VS what seems "cool".
If the electric fans had variable pitch (like an airplane prop) it might be a different story But, they don't.
I'm definitely open to being wrong but I'm pretty sure I can make this setup work. It's part of the fun
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