Question about modern technology cam for Early FordFlat Head

Engine tech, for those engines, products, and technologies of yesteryear.

Moderator: Team

Kahuna
Pro
Pro
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Northern California

Question about modern technology cam for Early FordFlat Head

Post by Kahuna »

I Hope I am phrasing this properly.
It seems for the most part that everyone uses old cam grinds for flatheads. I would like to know if it's possible to use the newest technology/advancements/ramp rates, etc. in cam grinding for a flathead Ford engine? I realize that a new cam core may be required, simply because an older used cam may not have sufficient material for the new ramps. The application would be for a flat tappet cam. I'm well aware of the record holding flathead that uses a much larger cam (diameter) and roller lifters, but this is well beyond my capabilities. If any of this doesn't make sense, let me know and I'll try to clarify.
Thanks
Jim
PackardV8
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7619
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:03 pm
Location: Spokane, WA

Post by PackardV8 »

Because the 1932 Ford V8 was designed for very low spring pressures and mild ramps, they also used a relatively spindly cam core. Since a flathead has to produce all the valve lift from the lobe lift, one can see the
"newest technology/advancements/ramp rates"
which produce .600" to 1.000" valve lift we enjoy today will definitely require a much larger core to handle the larger lobes necessary.

FWIW, more than sixty years ago Ed Winfield and later, Ed Iskenderian were using keyed radiused tappets to enable higher lift and faster rates than the flat tappets could accept. The .404" lobe lift Isky offered was the maximum he could fit on the existing architecture.

BTW, anything over .404" also usually hits the head also. Change one thing, change them all.

thnx, jack vines.
Jack Vines
Studebaker-Packard V8 Limited
Obsolete Engineering
Kahuna
Pro
Pro
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Northern California

Post by Kahuna »

[/quote]
FWIW, more than sixty years ago Ed Winfield and later, Ed Iskenderian were using keyed radiused tappets to enable higher lift and faster rates than the flat tappets could accept. The .404" lobe lift Isky offered was the maximum he could fit on the existing architecture.

BTW, anything over .404" also usually hits the head also. Change one thing, change them all.

thnx, jack vines.

Yes, Jack. I am aware of the radius lifters, and that Potvin made the Potvin Eliminator 425 cam with .425 lift. I was just wondering if newer/ faster ramp rates could be applied and make any improvements. Also, will make any head alterations/modifications as necessary. I'm really just trying to put as much new thinking into this engine as possible due to the information you and the other experts provide on this forum. Thanks for the response
Jim
Cammer
Pro
Pro
Posts: 386
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:27 am
Location:

Post by Cammer »

There are also OHV conversions!
___________________

A Lion In Winter
PackardV8
Guru
Guru
Posts: 7619
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:03 pm
Location: Spokane, WA

Post by PackardV8 »

FWIW, for flathead inspiration, all one has to do is look at modern OHC designs. The modular Ford V6-8-10 family uses cams with very large base circles to get the necessary lift. All OHCs function in a similar fashion to that of the flathead, although many OHCs interpose a follower/finger/rocker between the lobe and the valve tip. For an exact profile match, choose an engine which runs the cam directly on a bucket tappet. All which would be necessary is to determine the largest diameter cam core which can be made to fit in a flathead block and then choose a current best-science OHC profile to fit it. Speed costs money. Flathead speed costs a lot of money. How fast do you want to go?

thnx, jv.
Jack Vines
Studebaker-Packard V8 Limited
Obsolete Engineering
User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 10709
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Post by CamKing »

We have a class at the local track that races flatheads.
I've ground a few of the cams for some of the local engine builders, and they're working well. With today's cam profiles, you can get more area without being harder on the valvetrain, or needing more spring pressure.
Last edited by CamKing on Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
Kahuna
Pro
Pro
Posts: 246
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Northern California

Post by Kahuna »

Thanks Mike for the response. This is the type of cam answer I was inquiring about. If convenient for you, I'd like to call and discuss next week.
Thanks
Jim
User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 10709
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Post by CamKing »

Kahuna wrote:Thanks Mike for the response. This is the type of cam answer I was inquiring about. If convenient for you, I'd like to call and discuss next week.
Thanks
Jim
Sure. Call from 9-5 east coast time.
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
pdq67
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9841
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:05 pm
Location:

Re: Question about modern technology cam for Early FordFlat Head

Post by pdq67 »

More flathead cam lift...

I would most certainly sink the head so that my valves could lift higher!

No big deal by me IF it is possible?

There would not be any suck/or whatever on the top of the valves because they would be so close to the head at lift.

pdq67
User avatar
frnkeore
Expert
Expert
Posts: 825
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2019 3:06 am
Location: Oregon

Re: Question about modern technology cam for Early FordFlat Head

Post by frnkeore »

I think many of you are selling the Flat Head cam profiles very short. They use a 1" lifter and are limited only by that but, the most aggressive .904 FT cam profile is anemic compared to the 1" FH profile and the FH profile will keep up with some roller cam profiles. Here's a example of the Howards FH profiles but, I'm adding a 1.6 & 1.7 rocker to it. This is what got me interested in using the Y block, 1" mushroom lifters, in a SBF.

Ford Flat head Lobe with rocker arm
Duration ---------------------Rocker Ratio
.020--.050--.200-Lobe lift-1.6--1.7
282.9 258.0 185.7 .433 = .693 -.736
286.8 262.0 189.5 .440 = .704 -.748

This is the max cam lift velocity for the .904 vs 1.000 lifter size (Mike's info):

Using a .008" safety margin:
The max velocity for a .904" lifter is .0077489"
The max velocity for a 1.000" lifter is .0085866"

As you can see, the 1" has almost 11% higher rate.

The flat heads limiting factor, is the intake port. It is only 1.312 in diameter and narrows to less than 1" and the bottom of the intake bowl is only 1". Besides being inverted to the flow direction, into the cylinder, how do you get any air through it, to make much HP, even if you open the bore and stroke, to 300 CI? Even a blower is highly restricted on that port.
pdq67
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9841
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:05 pm
Location:

Re: Question about modern technology cam for Early FordFlat Head

Post by pdq67 »

Tell me if I am wrong here, but I thought Ford "Y"-blocks used like roofing nail lifters?? Suckers had to come out of the bottom of the block..

So how do you use them in a SBF engine??

Now if you are just talking about the diameter of the foot, then fine???

pdq67
Truckedup
Guru
Guru
Posts: 2728
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:41 pm
Location: Finger Lakes

Re: Question about modern technology cam for Early FordFlat Head

Post by Truckedup »

I thought every flathead V8 had a cracked block and not worth trying to increase power.
Motorcycle land speed racing... wearing animal hides and clinging to vibrating oily machines propelled by fire
pdq67
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9841
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:05 pm
Location:

Re:

Post by pdq67 »

CamKing wrote: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:51 pm We have a class at the local track that races flatheads.
I've ground a few of the cams for some of the local engine builders, and they're working well. With today's cam profiles, you can get more area without being harder on the valvetrain, or needing more spring pressure.
Where are the racers getting their old flathead engines??

I haven't seen a flathead engine in a junkyard since like the early 80's.

Ford stopped selling them in cars like about back in '53 or so, didn't they?

pdq67
User avatar
CamKing
Guru
Guru
Posts: 10709
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:05 pm
Location: Denver, NC
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post by CamKing »

pdq67 wrote: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:47 am
Where are the racers getting their old flathead engines??
Same place racers are getting old SB Chevy engines.
Junk Yard, Ebay, Craigslist.
You can also buy brand new aftermarket blocks and heads
Mike Jones
Jones Cam Designs

Denver, NC
jonescams@bellsouth.net
http://www.jonescams.com
Jones Cam Designs' HotPass Vendors Forum: viewforum.php?f=44
(704)489-2449
pdq67
Guru
Guru
Posts: 9841
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:05 pm
Location:

Re: Question about modern technology cam for Early FordFlat Head

Post by pdq67 »

I know about the NOS French flatheads but still..

pdq67
Post Reply